From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:03:35 +0100 Message-ID: References: <871r1k38ym.fsf@gmail.com> <878rvs1i5a.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mtk8ywye.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6g8yql2.fsf@yahoo.com> <87lezrvyfx.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="MSwVuhSKRLoHsCfI" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39727"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 08 09:41:58 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n67IU-000A8j-Gm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 09:41:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33944 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n67IT-0006Os-Bh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 03:41:57 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39350) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n66hV-0003I7-Po for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 03:03:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:36134) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n66hT-0006tZ-RA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 03:03:45 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=p97b8cGtl60giI0IW6vS0Om0KnLsXTr9tFzZt3ZiPZ8=; b=AQN5nSHN02gXsQU3iTN7sLHsIX jAb3a4r4r/Zjx0ZeDUdYuFNoBQsu8pBI1K0ARU/Y4LHbO23A23ZzWVEZ04O6siVAMawYAtartnmp/ WqizD7v96t/arLtpIc/yzLkU6g2E8myeJusb+YYWSSuA/x91VUR701hMJkkbmdL+UIQ1faCge7Ugx UcJ7PWNuLViGLBVZETedAc+wHojlSZpuhxvKXyfndlpUv+BrOab9U7gv2oYPGtw2dEjj1te5TYFak uVsIUuivFNWn8q5uejITYEIUwY2/0yAJ7R1cmIPa7RJ1G87wLJO8+bVhHHt1wNT5BGm0Y0R/5ZnaW KJxvSkvw==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1n66hL-00077e-Hj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jan 2022 09:03:35 +0100 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87lezrvyfx.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:284449 Archived-At: --MSwVuhSKRLoHsCfI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jan 08, 2022 at 08:54:58AM +0800, Po Lu wrote: > Drew Adams writes: >=20 > > Consider `transient-mark-mode'. > > Its existence in Emacs was status quo for a > > very long time, and the behavior was OFF. > > Until it wasn't - the status quo was changed > > to ON. Holy Toledo! >=20 > > That was a backward-incompatible change in > > behavior. It affected thousands of users. > > It took us _decades_ to get that change made. > > Status quo, status quo, status quo. Drew, this is being polemic, and you know it. There may be reasons for a change (there often are), but they should be discussed on their merits. Sometimes, that discussion is arduous, because there are folks who prefer the old behaviour. Dismissing something just because it sticks to the "status quo" is a disrespect towards those users who /in this one case/ prefer this status quo for whatever good (to them!) reason. Gotta listen to that, instead of just telling them "you're a luddite" or "you're just resistant to change". This can be even offensive: after all, it's a way of telling those people "you don't exist". Big flamewars have been in part fuelled by this pattern. With a program as old as Emacs, which will have lots of more old users than new, I think those discussions are necessary. In the present case, I'm against the proposed change. Why? Because it alienates some old users for no reason but some "pedagogy" towards hypothetical new users, although there would be far better means to achieve that (several have been proposed in this thread). Personally, I won't be affected by that: I separated off the custom file long ago anyway. I'd be miffed had I not and had the change come anyway (I'm one of those who /edit/ the custom file after Customize has done its work, because (a) I can't stand "HANDS OFF! THIS FILE NOT FOR YOU!", and (b) because at the beginning it was a wonderful way to learn about Emacs's inner workings). So I can feel with those who now oppose this change. > They turned it off. End of story. Some > muffled grumbles, nothing more. Why? > Because you can still use Emacs as before - > just turn `t-m-mode' off (Customize). > Happy campers all around. You are overlooking something important: our community is (compared to others) pretty civilised. Idiosyncratic, yes, but civilised. The maintainers are highly respected people (at least among most old timers, and this /is/ an important part of our community). So once a decision has been reached, each one tries to get along with it. Still, I think this comes both ways, and this seemingly endless discussions are part of what helps people to stay civilised, because concerns from all sides are heard. Cheers --=20 t --MSwVuhSKRLoHsCfI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EABECAB0WIQRp53liolZD6iXhAoIFyCz1etHaRgUCYdlFUAAKCRAFyCz1etHa Rk1ZAJ9IYpoZamCr49+pTPX+IHzNYyC99QCcCtzkOff+9DnNa5sGdiomS1+R3EM= =M55p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --MSwVuhSKRLoHsCfI--