From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: sqlite3 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 21:25:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87czm98qi1.fsf@gnu.org> <87o85tcwm0.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <874k7ljwkr.fsf@gnus.org> <87fsr5cuzq.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <878rwx8mdn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zgpdhw4d.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F63580E-FF58-45D0-9DBB-389ED64C0F11@mit.edu> <83v8zzw867.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12965"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Qiantan Hong , rms@gnu.org, eric@ericabrahamsen.net, cesar.mena@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, luangruo@yahoo.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 10 22:26:28 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mvnPP-00039K-SM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 22:26:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43518 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvnPO-0007sw-9e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 16:26:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44914) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvnOB-000780-1X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 16:25:11 -0500 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:61654 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvnO8-0002w3-LD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 16:25:10 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 14478 invoked by uid 3782); 10 Dec 2021 21:25:06 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4fe15e51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.94.81]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 22:25:06 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 9385 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Dec 2021 21:25:05 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83v8zzw867.fsf@gnu.org> X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.1; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:281630 Archived-At: Hello, Eli and Emacs. On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 15:14:08 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Qiantan Hong > > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 05:41:17 +0000 > > Cc: Po Lu , Eric Abrahamsen , > > cesar mena , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" > > I’m against using sqlite3, or maybe in general any database. > Why would you be against adding to Emacs infrastructure that might be > useful for some applications? Because it can degrade other applications. Primarily Emacs is a programmers' text editor, and I would like it to stay that way. Adding database functionality is inessential to that prime function (regardless of how important it might be), therefore is a burden to that prime function. All things like gnus, org-mode are likewise inessential - they add many megabytes to the source-code, greatly increase build time, take up key-bindings, space in documentation (hopefully ;-) and so on. I've never used org-mode in my life, and only tried out gnus once, around 20 years ago, when it was too slow and too complicated for me. Yet I have to pay the costs of these packages every time I build Emacs bootstrap. I'm not arguing for a removal of these things, which are clearly good. But I think it is reasonable to question the wisdom of adding more inessential stuff. > We didn't yet decide what would be the policy and guidelines for using > this in Emacs, but there should be no doubt that when we do make those > decisions, we will take into considerations all the factors that you > mentioned, and more. Because Lars, myself, and all the others here > are quite aware of the needs and the advantages/disadvantages, and we > use and develop Emacs long enough to understand what is and what isn't > Emacs'y. So the decisions, when they are made, will not be silly or > haphazard. Rest assured that where using simple text files is > adequate, no one in their right mind will advocate using a DB. > I see no reason to be "against sqlite3". Many popular software > packages out there have similar capabilities, so why shouldn't Emacs > offer them as well? Just because it can be abused? If that's the > reason, we'd need to "be against" almost every advanced Emacs feature, > and I personally would go over the display engine and butcher it to > remove every single advanced feature that people are known to abuse. > Would that make sense? I hope not. I disagree with you (Eli), that we should not anticipate and be wary of how people might use things. As an example, Richard warned me a few years ago against introducing a hook for changes in narrowing, saying that it was too powerful, and would end up with users using it in ways which would cause us lots of trouble. Similarly, look at what has happened to the humble web brower - it started as a browser for the web, and has in recent years transformed into an execution engine for (usually) none-free and often hostile scripts. Would this have happened had somebody not developed JavaScript? I miss the web browser of old. Similarly, I would be very unhappy if somebody transformed Emacs into a database engine, where its prime features were unusable without the database features being built in. I think this possibility, remote at this juncture, should be borne in mind. > So please, can you drop this "against sqlite3" attitude, and let Lars > finish the job he started? Adding capabilities to Emacs, and in > particular providing us with interfaces to modern technologies, is > supposed to be a Good Thing, something that advances Emacs and makes > it a better, more capable platform for developing useful applications. > It's our way to survive in the long run. Let's not shoot ourselves in > the foot due to myopic perspectives. As above, I don't agree entirely with this perspective. > TIA -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).