From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Fixing post-self-insert-hook. Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:41:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87k0jfdkm2.fsf@gmail.com> <83fsu277ad.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30754"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 18 11:42:11 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mRWrL-0007ny-HQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 11:42:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51430 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mRWrJ-0008S6-Sx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:42:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40970) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mRWqS-0007lv-6p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:41:16 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:25742 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mRWqQ-00036W-1o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:41:16 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 87542 invoked by uid 3782); 18 Sep 2021 09:41:11 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p2e5d52d9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.93.82.217]) (using STARTTLS) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 11:41:11 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 5232 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Sep 2021 09:41:10 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83fsu277ad.fsf@gnu.org> X-Submission-Agent: TMDA/1.3.x (Ph3nix) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.1; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274977 Archived-At: Hello, Eli. On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 08:59:54 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:35:50 +0000 > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > The point is, these calls are currently undefined. Pretty much every > > last one of them, apart from the ones in cc-cmds.el, which have been > > made defined again. > > These 111 calls might have been working, they might not, they might have > > sort of been working as long as electric-pair-mode isn't enabled. Who > > knows? They're currently in a sort of race condition. > If they aren't working, where are the bug reports about that? They don't work, at least some of them. That is evident from examining the source code and mechanisms involved. As for bug reports, there are many thousand open ones which Lars is heroically working through, some of which don't have obvious causes. > We only have bug reports about CC mode so far. The bugs are, however, not in CC Mode and can't be fixed there. They can only be worked around, which is what has been done since bug #33794 at the end of 2018. This workaround is ugly and caused bad feeling at the time. > > So, yes, you're basically right. We should move the call to p-s-i-h not > > just to fix the interface to electric-pair-mode and friends, but to > > bring sanity back to Emacs with respect to this matter. > I'm against such changes, as you well know. Indeed! I can only respect that whilst disagreeing strongly with it. I've never been a fan of "it mostly works, so don't touch it!". > With Emacs, "sane" is mostly defined as the status quo, because Emacs > "mostly works". Any significant change in such a low-level facility > is, therefore, "insane", IMNSHO, unless the problem is also general. The problem is indeed general, in the sense that self-insert-function is general. The effects of the problem have only been felt in the electric-... minor modes so far. > And we don't have evidence that the problem is global. We have a complete understanding of how self-insert-function is broken. This has had damaging effects in the interface between electric-pair-mode and CC Mode for which workarounds were installed in CC Mode. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).