Leaving Freenode behind

Leaving Freenode behind

[Stefan Kangas]

As you may have heard, the Freenode IRC network has been taken over by
a hostile corporate entity.[1][2]  The #emacs community has already
moved.[3]

I suggest we stop promoting it in Emacs, and instead promote the
community run Libera Chat.[4]  This would mean removing most
references and links to Freenode in our sources and documentation.

Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
ahead and make the necessary changes.

Footnotes:
[1] https://www.kline.sh/
[2] https://fuchsnet.ch/privat/fn-resign-letter.txt
[3] https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsChannel#h5o-9
[4] https://libera.chat/

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
> ahead and make the necessary changes.

This is bug#49004 -- I thought Amin had already already pushed these
changes, but I guess not?

Amin?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> [2021-06-21 23:26]:
> As you may have heard, the Freenode IRC network has been taken over by
> a hostile corporate entity.[1][2]  The #emacs community has already
> moved.[3]
> 
> I suggest we stop promoting it in Emacs, and instead promote the
> community run Libera Chat.[4]  This would mean removing most
> references and links to Freenode in our sources and documentation.
> 
> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
> ahead and make the necessary changes.

Maybe you have to research that subject better. What you mention as
"hostile corporate entity" is the same entity supporting and
organizing money for Freenode to exist for years. You made rather
harsh statement IMHO.

How I see it, their drama does not belong to emacs-devel.

I also think that everybody is free to use any service and emacs-devel
should not promote neither this or that network as being better or
invalidate a network as being hostile.

Make a channel wherever you wish and let people choose without
emotional wars.

I am surprised how you people start acting as judges where there is no
case.

Remember that the "hostile entity" never changed its attitude towards
support of the free software.

Instead of saying "thanks" for all of the years, you spread
misinformation here.

Btw, there are 19200 users... does that mean you are dropping people
for mis-judgment?

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The GNU Project is moving its IRC channels to Libera, so it would be good
good to adjust Emacs to this.

I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
"community-run" might be misleading.

That is not a criticism of Libera, though.  In fact, Freenode has been
a company all along, including when it was good to use.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Stefan Kangas]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> "community-run" might be misleading.

This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.

Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
bylaws".[1]

Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.

Footnotes:
[1] https://libera.chat/about

Leaving Freenode behind

[Christopher Dimech]

It is unfortunate to think that the moment one markets something,
then it is corrupt.  There is nothing wrong with a business or an
industry.  Business means that something that someone needs, someone
decides to provide.  As long as it is a legitimate business and people
are paying their taxes.  Of course for a cost, because if it needs to be
sustained, there has to be a cost.  

Till people give up this attitude, free software will not spread
across.  Free software must go to every village if the urban people
pay for it.  That is my mission and I will take it there.



> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 4:35 PM
> From: "Stefan Kangas" <stefan@marxist.se>
> To: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: "Emacs developers" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Leaving Freenode behind
>
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> > "community-run" might be misleading.
> 
> This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
> with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
> bylaws".[1]
> 
> Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
> number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
> association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
> not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
> expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
> controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.
> 
> Footnotes:
> [1] https://libera.chat/about
> 
>

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> [2021-06-22 08:15]:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> > "community-run" might be misleading.
> 
> This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
> with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
> bylaws".[1]
> 
> Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
> number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
> association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
> not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
> expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
> controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.
> 
> Footnotes:
> [1] https://libera.chat/about

When speaking of Swedish companies, have registered quite a few of
such for our clients. They are all registered with Bolagsverket.se. 

What you wish to say is that it is a non-profit type of an entity.
You mix the general term "company" to be only the company with
shareholders or members with shares.

In many countries "company" is used for any kind of type of the
entity, including for a partnership, including for non-incorporated
associations and so on. So it is in Sweden. In fact, when you wish to
search for a any type of a company you are offered label that includes
the word "company". 

Even if a non-profit is named "non-profit" the only difference is that
profits are not distributed as dividends to shareholders. Non-profit
though can pay very high salaries to its board, employees and hire
outside companies where money may go. Everything else if anything
remains, is used for re-investing into non-profit purposes.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
  > > "community-run" might be misleading.

  > This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.

  > Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
  > with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
  > bylaws".[1]

I stand corrected.

However, I continue to recall that Freenode has been a company for
many years, and operated acceptably until very recently.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Leaving Freenode behind

[Amin Bandali]

Hi Lars, all,

Lars Ingebrigtsen writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:
>
>> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
>> ahead and make the necessary changes.
>
> This is bug#49004 -- I thought Amin had already already pushed these
> changes, but I guess not?
>
> Amin?

Indeed, that's bug#49004, but I hadn't gotten a chance to make the
small tweaks that I'd wanted.  I did that a bit earlier tonight, and
pushed it to 'emacs-27' and then merged it into 'master' as well.