From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Suggested experimental test Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:14:08 +0300 Message-ID: References: <831ba60af0cbfdd95686@heytings.org> <87mtuxj8ue.fsf@gnus.org> <9088e12cb3de3d30abf1@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20565"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0.6 (2021-03-06) Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 22 11:36:43 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lOHvO-0005Do-LE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:36:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58808 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOHvN-0001IS-Mt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 06:36:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58902) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOHdi-0000mB-TY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 06:18:26 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:50945) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOHdg-0008Sj-HJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 06:18:26 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.53]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001E079.0000000060586EED.000048AD; Mon, 22 Mar 2021 03:18:20 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Gregory Heytings , Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9088e12cb3de3d30abf1@heytings.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:266742 Archived-At: * Gregory Heytings [2021-03-21 13:52]: > > > > May I suggest the attached, slightly more controversial, > > > experimental test? > > > > Removing `C-o' has already been suggested, and there's already been a > > lot of negative feedback on that, if I remember correctly. So I don't > > think there's much point in doing this experiment. > > > > Well... the suggested experiment does not remove C-o, it changes C-o in a > way that is, I believe, painless. We cannot know whether it is indeed > painless without experimenting at a larger scale. The few who objected > against changing C-o may well find out, after trying it out, that this small > change is not as bad as they thought. We learned in sales to take the viewpoint of a customer to understand customer better. Now imagine people using C-o for decades and now C-o does not do what it is supposed to do, but then in other editors related to Emacs it does what is supposed to do. This impacts users greatly. I am multi-editor user, so imagine I start using in vi editor something like `i i' to insert letters, or `O O' to insert new line, then one Emacs version will be claiming that C-o does this, the other that C-o C-o does what C-o was doing. Counting with millions of Emacs users that brings some implications.