From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org schemas we talked to be non-free, was: [ELPA] New package: repology.el Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 20:50:35 +0300 Message-ID: References: <83zh0y2jtu.fsf@gnu.org> <83mtwx2gnx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36497"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Cc: rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, ams@gnu.org, arthur.miller@live.com, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 25 18:58:18 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l4680-0009Ls-Sf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 18:58:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60734 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l467z-00071u-Nn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 12:58:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43062) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l465Z-00061P-QZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 12:55:46 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l465X-0005VL-2B; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 12:55:45 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.157.0.39]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001E07A.00000000600F05FA.000053DA; Mon, 25 Jan 2021 10:55:06 -0700 Mail-Followup-To: Eli Zaretskii , ulm@gentoo.org, rms@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, ams@gnu.org, arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83mtwx2gnx.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -3 X-Spam_score: -0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:263402 Archived-At: * Eli Zaretskii [2021-01-25 18:14]: > > Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 23:47:42 +0300 > > From: Jean Louis > > Cc: ulm@gentoo.org, rms@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, ams@gnu.org, > > arthur.miller@live.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > I understand it. If that schema defines a document format and document > > format cannot be modified then I do not see how software that handles > > that document format is free. Programmers should be able to improve > > the format or make it incompatible as it is part of the overall > > document creation. It is not software but data used by software. Data > > should be modifiable in my opinion. > > Modifications of a schema produce a file that can no longer be used > with the same collection of documents and protocols. So such > modifications are not useful. I very much hope that we as a movement > will not insist on abstract "freedom" to make useless modifications > just for the sake of modifications. To me, Free Software movement is > a pragmatic movement that picks up its fights wisely, and this > particular fight isn't, it's a Quixotic fight for a useless goal. That may be. I do not know. I find it alright to fork various software and change the final format of a document and produce new software with it. That is why also schemas should be modifiable. Otherwise it could make all software producing those documents non-free. I am just not sure if that schema does what I think it does. Of course people would not really make useless modifications. There are reasons why and how modifications are made, why sometimes forks are necessary. Libreoffice is itself fork from Openoffice. I do not see it being useless, now it is everywhere. I cannot even find Openoffice easy. It is useful. Then again without all the combinations of useless and useful things we would not be able to distinguish between each other. Plethora of people will make some useless things, but some of those useless will incite other people to make useful things. Those are butterfly effects, we better not underestimate it. Some projects will stall. Why does Guile language support Emacs Lisp? One could say it is useless to create new implementation of Emacs Lisp. Or new implementation of Common Lisp. In relation to formats, such should be free and modifiable, people shall be able to build upon them and create new formats. Some will be useless some will be useful. But without freedom, we will not even know it.