From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: on hyperlinks (bookmarks) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 21:26:48 +0300 Message-ID: References: <20201105143800.7vt5jfr4gg2wigyb@E15-2016.optimum.net> <20201106091525.mzkxrssm7o43jvff@E15-2016.optimum.net> <20201108093604.rb3lpyqw4mvmwtdt@E15-2016.optimum.net> <20201108124020.jmxb4luvq6fot7xg@E15-2016.optimum.net> <6d8882a5-23aa-4fab-b222-30928dc17eb9@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27211"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/+ (1036f0e) (2020-10-18) Cc: Emacs-Devel List , Boruch Baum , Arthur Miller , Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 08 19:32:29 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kbpUK-0006vy-S0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2020 19:32:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36580 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kbpUJ-0000Zr-U9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2020 13:32:27 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35308) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kbpSx-00007F-T5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2020 13:31:04 -0500 Original-Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:49533) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kbpSt-0002W8-MF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2020 13:31:02 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.157.34.177]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002C0006.000000005FA83960.000054B7; Sun, 08 Nov 2020 18:30:56 +0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6d8882a5-23aa-4fab-b222-30928dc17eb9@default> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/08 13:17:11 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:258918 Archived-At: * Drew Adams [2020-11-08 19:51]: > > > It does presume a 'segregationist' mind-set > > > that I clearly have and many on this list don't, > > > ie. it didn't occur to me that people find it > > > desirable to mix up bookmark types. > > 1. If there are no specific handlers, so the default > handler is always used, then there are, generally > speaking, no bookmark types. The most-default > default behavior is to treat all bookmarks the same. > > 2. Even when there are multiple bookmark types (and > there are, even in `emacs -Q' - Info bookmarks, > for instance), nothing _requires_ someone to "mix" > bookmarks of different types in the same bookmark > file. And if I use database I am using types of bookmarks. Even if everything is "together" in display it need not be. I could decide to show only specific type of bookmarks. So they are together but it is up to me or user to get different display, they are together as collection in one database table and they can be always separate in displaying or using them. > then no, that has nothing particular to do with me > or Bookmark+. That's basic to the vanilla-Emacs > design of bookmarks, and it has been so since Day > One. There's a default behavior, AND you can add > bookmark types with their own behavior. That I understood. And I am trying to understand from bookmark+ how is that done. > > In computing, a hyperlink, or simply a link, is a reference to data > > that the user can follow by clicking or tapping.[1] A hyperlink points > > to a whole document or to a specific element within a > > document. Hypertext is text with hyperlinks. The text that is linked > > from is called anchor text. A software system that is used for viewing > > and creating hypertext is a hypertext system, and to create a > > hyperlink is to hyperlink (or simply to link). A user following > > hyperlinks is said to navigate or browse the hypertext. > > > > Emacs bookmarks, bookmarks+ or diredc bookmarks or any similar system > > fit into that definition of hypertext systems. Merging them together > > or having unified search and filtering interface is useful. > > Yes, to all of that. The main characteristics of > Emacs bookmarks are these, IMO: > > 1. They're persistent. > (They don't have to be, but they can be.) Yes, they are. Only they are designed for single users, not for collaborative sharing. Bookmark+ has export option. Files can be shared really, but that is not fast collaborative sharing. There are many things inside for me to learn and adopt good ideas I missed myself. In my Hyperscope system that I am preparing, hyperlinks (bookmarks) are shareable and global. That increases collective IQ. Engelbart: https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/172/130/ Users with access to database can then collaboratively share common knowledge and references. Imagine when we work in local area network, several users translating files and need references. New reference is added as bookmark and all other users have reference without updating or sharing files as reference is simply accessed through common database. It implies that some files are shared and accessible between users that bookmarks can access them. While Emacs is one interface to such bookmarks, there can be various other interfaces. > 2. They can record nearly anything. It would be good that every structured software or information provides clear way of finely grained referencing. Reference: https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/116/#7j Example from that page shows on the right side references 7j and 7k: THE BASIC "HYPER" CHARACTERISTICS - where embedded objects called links can point to any arbitrary object within the document, or within another document in a specified domain of documents - and the link can be actuated by a user or an automatic process to "go see what is at the other end," or "bring the other-end object to this location," or "execute the process identified at the other end." (These executable processes may control peripheral devices such as CD ROM, video-disk players, etc.) 7j HYPERDOCUMENT "BACK-LINK" CAPABILITY - when reading a hyperdocument online, a worker can utilize information about links from other objects within this or other hyperdocuments that point to this hyperdocument - or to designated objects or passages of interest in this hyperdocument. 7k That feature for every paragraph to get specific #name in WWW is I think not supported not even in Org mode, but it should be, especially in Org mode. Koutliner from GNU Hyperbole could have improved HTML export and easily provide the feature with back references. Many PDF readers do not support specific --goto-page --goto-line --goto-search options. If they do, they do not have a built in back-referencing system that user can simply press a key and obtain the book mark specification, something like but they should have. Programmers and document creators could improve collective IQ by providing back referencing features. Example of obvious lack of such feature is email reference ID. References are mostly used by software, and there are almost no functions for humans. I would like to be able, when reading email, to obtain the back link which I can then store somewhere as bookmark so that I can come back to that specific email, specific line or marked text in the email. Emails are very constant documents when on file system, perfect for bookmarking. But we do not have those features almost in no email client. For those who use Maildirs we can use direct jump to specific files on file system and read them as emails. For those using mboxes I think there are no such referencing possibilities in email readers. In Emacs we can get bookmark with {C-x r m RET} for the file at the point. It is useful and it just needs easy sharing. Emacs works on multi-user systems but is not designed for multi-users. To share bookmarks one would need either to copy bookmark files or provide some web page or transmit one by one. By sharing or having possibility to share such as through datbase or imaginable shared bookmark feature then every household or group or company or organization member can get bookmarks or hyperlinks assigned to his space or could enter into the collection of bookmarks that other related persons created. `eww' lacks function to bookmark specific page on specific line. I can of course add eww bookmark with `w' but that does not reference specific line or specific search on the page. If there are no #names it becomes impossible for many browsers to obtain finely grained reference or back link. For `eww' it would be relatively easy to do that feature and include it in {C-x r m RET} to be bookmarked by Emacs system, not eww system.