From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Rethinking the design of xwidgets Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 15:49:33 +0200 Message-ID: References: <864kmzupp0.fsf@akirakyle.com> <835z7e2ouj.fsf@gnu.org> <86v9fet5sg.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83imbe1040.fsf@gnu.org> <86pn5luak4.fsf@akirakyle.com> <83362g27y6.fsf@gnu.org> <124a89a6-353c-91f8-8a1a-d2a807db28e3@yandex.ru> <777a890b-cc3f-5338-4eea-129b66c29451@yandex.ru> <6ce4b6fa-d0ae-14dd-a5d1-f2b27080b3c3@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15487"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: eliz@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , ak@akirakyle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 20 15:51:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kUs2U-0003sv-Qi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 15:50:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50998 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kUs2T-0005Sb-RM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 09:50:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60052) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kUs1G-0004lZ-Ki for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 09:49:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oln040092075085.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.75.85]:12946 helo=EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kUs1D-0003Sv-3C; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 09:49:42 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Iat7lXVWEQex++g/zchVxDFwhHjG85QpHaO0DJNHTmJjyTEkyQXFpuMpsL0ZlPWEcXt848Wl2nAyN1ditlQJsBzmoOWCQQ9g3PifxADOgYiSoK1HEkPc5UgPlhLcH4WheS+kVu7zAB6QZZB00BoCsxeB91aHINU0TSjw07mTaZ50PkPwdTOJvGlROaLh8Bn0ckbj8feLzUN2I1Kw3VTMvlRDN/7o51J/Jg97DTZqKI49p8+Rhu2jRYNihoJ4TUzTtS8eFEz4gGxLB2aItrWkFVKV34UiXkVzAyW87UwAERcRmvhHh0hHkgROIZ+M0Yt8O5hFG5u+wCs2JcuLlPrLSg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=sYlKxb4revST72Gfi6q2/G8t6M7eq0B9SDSWiXsVWyo=; b=hPHFr90UTdZPNGp1QiBJFk5FMjKFlPG8qd0/NoLGOq0cuQCL1ToxjkmRR/RIRMGbnFRVH8csl0YOUqn9KuVbgnNhu+hvz5iMiVpLxcFOoEUZKVsHKy4fg0xCXjJI8rOmxKoy8V9I20tDpskLjjpP+BhWTzTQZe0b/hMSaD7tm1DeJHeHk/UkwZUlRxoPalxWvKlcTXLxRitwt6xNBD/KG3dG+YuUOkadmbjmjjhGyMeq6irg5HBgm8uY6BofvPnY81AeXgA32GiQ8a06Ww9scGuB8vWW5WuNcR/rmd5e80OJMis57sLtu1ik27hyvI7FN4zmf3Oh1i40HsZPcCAQQw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=sYlKxb4revST72Gfi6q2/G8t6M7eq0B9SDSWiXsVWyo=; b=Kgl54pCZw9HptCzjfWiKQUeM7mTqdV7Bn/X2ijc5KkQghtG1q9ysuTau3R4uWkoNZU/jkwrqgdJsMq86fcAS3fQKdGNmEFX5Fsf4iGKzNb3pPqviNkhgO6+6133YrlDboddIkZlnsW8Tim4cSTXX7AlAaAAFbZmT1CLuTG6cKkNFe1YcGQ36DeNHVmU1Hiol8syp/glHGg7YMI4ey1TN4zI6qt17BF1xhbt5SZvCKoerrtLvpkip/XVGCTA20cGxv4eMuRmsQbvc4iOtW5GU0ljQZc6WEWAA6APBxdPX1vSahTCYImUv9wyq1+0PNoZXu3UDGgEMN7a+m7kkheroLA== Original-Received: from HE1EUR04FT021.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0d::42) by HE1EUR04HT197.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0d::395) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3477.21; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:49:34 +0000 Original-Received: from VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0d::4e) by HE1EUR04FT021.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e0d::100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3477.21 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:49:34 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:E21936BD8B7D3E2CAD78889804079A5D3449AF72EDB486194FD07489F7249313; UpperCasedChecksum:659FC3D7A1ACE5EA504A81DE023F61A55C83DDEE2D9945A797C08AE439512051; SizeAsReceived:8283; Count:46 Original-Received: from VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::187b:196a:cb2d:adf1]) by VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::187b:196a:cb2d:adf1%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3477.028; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:49:34 +0000 In-Reply-To: <6ce4b6fa-d0ae-14dd-a5d1-f2b27080b3c3@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:45:43 +0300") X-TMN: [4txCEcV11zIOhkfhZ4FU1tuchlXvdbpa] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P193CA0106.EURP193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:88::47) To VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:ac::17) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87sga9qa6q.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (90.230.29.56) by AM6P193CA0106.EURP193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:88::47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3477.23 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:49:34 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 3191f2d7-463c-4087-2cd2-08d874fefa51 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: HE1EUR04HT197: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: yaxKwtf13uLLlcY8UgpvQMQs+iGP59Qu1AlX8XCHhyyJ23kZ9RgtcfEPW5In1XjHrZ0MwUlY7Y2h0HVY1Rvdxt5XdBiv/0XGWKUVHFYKL6MDojIg8JaeSDkqi9ezgNmpQq/ngvBdE3BVzgyMEbC7GXjbj6JgguGePSzxges6QdVdaqzq9AKTQN2+3lAMiQA7IzqqrIpx9OMX0PztU1zOqQMySf5pinRkmuim519uXvZkspSO4CLXUx5fpPaS1jFl X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 4hfF9HCL1arPUpMBCpx3XPcmTYBYl8v+7ilpaccnO97SD+zUjT6lbIflCdpQ8ex8Jh8ravvWhhv3no+TJnGHipTEY44FqsqkgBX2Z46Jq1I0ghihUWAvjBntImutfL76u8RUf++6glVNwREM1K69Xw== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3191f2d7-463c-4087-2cd2-08d874fefa51 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2020 13:49:34.6742 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1EUR04FT021.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR04HT197 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.75.85; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/20 09:49:35 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:258192 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > On 20.10.2020 08:56, Arthur Miller wrote: >>> >https://www.extremetech.com/computing/259879-dell-now-shipping-laptops-intels-management-engine-disabled >>> >>> I know about Purism, but this news about Dell may be interesting. >>> Thanks. >> I just looked up at dell.se; I don't see it mentioned that they have >> disabled ME; the article is from 2017. I can't even choose to buy it >> without Windows. > > Yes, sorry. Seems this info if outdated. The model with which you could > seemingly still do that at the beginning of this year > (https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/eidk1x/how_to_buy_a_dell_laptop_with_the_intel_me/) > is no longer available. > > That still leaves System76 and me_cleaner, though. I see one problem with Purism. Consider Intel and Purism. What considers me, they are both US based private business (I don't know how much US or private Intel is, but I guess). So what we are doing is exchanging a blob for company A for a blob of company B. Blob from B should disable blob from A. How do I know B is not run secretely by some goverment organisation that likes to spy on it's own citizens and foreign ones. Just recently we learned there was a supposedly independent Swiss company that sold a cryptography machines to goverments all over the world. It turned out it was secretely collaborating with CIA that gott keys to decrypt everyone's secrets :D. Russians never bought it, but some other countries did. Idea of blobs is bad; and Dr. Richard S. is completelycorrect about blobs not being acceptable. But then, we need to live in this world as it is; so we need a sustianable solution for the future. I don't know if limiting what Emacs can do on capabilities of a machine from the past is a best strategy; but I am not very wise, and certainly did not do enough research and thinking in the area, so this is just my ramblings and consideration; unfortunately I have no answers myself.