From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 16:08:58 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4XvMn7QQudwuCq-3cSOnqK_gBoHnmblv2--PKi2oupbCsZwaxxrzA2Chwb6LEzzg1TYjAJNboC8lwPgw8VA5IhYUBs-Jly9HfTqPtsgZUHg=@protonmail.com> <01502186-69cb-86fb-612e-868068e7a998@yandex.ru> <6e2c9c07-31c4-38eb-c679-7e680f9f02ed@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="125469"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: ndame@protonmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 05 16:11:34 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyII-000WY5-4h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 16:11:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35268 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyIH-0004Os-7l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:11:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55870) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyFt-0001sq-2Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:09:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oln040092067047.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.67.47]:11401 helo=EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyFr-00081Q-8a; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:09:04 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=L95+dsKz5F66lOe1YvFjaDzM1eWbTJgVcuXyLydoyfLSSgKgH+qd8yHxOHMMxWH0njVh6IokqzPBQ3e1i3fnqgpl2wA7khv6R+73+4aHcF9nFe9SdKPFiKx5f6kPrXzx688nZCa+P3dKPrywK0a8sD2Akq5YAohNrs3KYixrPoM1TCRTQMgnL19Lb4gNTNJ2x8urhP0QtjwhIEENbf7t7scTMWE5NlGyNehFEMus209AKc0E0Ws0iaC32wdXguUcKFybLevuKfvVitDlzKbvKF2VXf9rnnYEc6anLLvpqLrR5jVH5mpp2fhAj0O38vdWccnjZ5KlTOmOARkXwehczw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=RwFT8qtVjSz9QQeLMTjNMs5Dh/vYKyWUk9PCfs+N6c0=; b=ioC1O5/blkqDOSmfkdX52JZ0RxGNWtz18tNnYUf9yBg2LpuvxcKEwQhplaKCIZbm2TUXBPjWFTijEYPRiTcf6c5c4p89PGI7ib3ZHWAI55cm3dLb5BywLSJfcU80TKKEU5wpLkh1yq8p4dA/o4k/Pf4v6vI20VlUq1e7lzAEq25zpxmE9TWrCnESa5UuXA0u//vsPE3tDbVlvfHghi4ez3rULrx8Br/Te1XfxiyaEi0KJeCF+ss0+Pc2ZRLBmlhcbIkJxESytqjBbY+Dd0A920o9A/GAQ8SCFsri88YXmUj36xG2nIvCxwXhdQqeomPV82jctGmiNAptnYKHS9pFgg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=live.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=live.com; dkim=pass header.d=live.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=RwFT8qtVjSz9QQeLMTjNMs5Dh/vYKyWUk9PCfs+N6c0=; b=Bsh8EzYCOgozLX/3WjGH70lvx0NvE0r1pPDmBPCYfnVXT6GLPj1O7raBg15aWhTi50NXKuUGv+1NIKyLXldos7JOahaTBXPKfsiR1ugo2ADokc3Jc3LlBHN+XHBy1njDoHzhqAmIPN53jBIkleYBy+Fouo6CynP+3jZrWhy5lOk+rzQti9jFcpZL/4MNJ5puHbCTPkurjjkIOgfDd1KsYyBxdA0yaUXelYCGP+VAj9/gDzWvw4JaH8VYwkryBT9UEsFOa4Z/BbSAursakAuvMwWptxIPW8ECBbVsJcqMEbY3fnbOC7p2Nyy6eFDQF4Jjv/jSjenuqOVeVa0yQN8Jhg== Original-Received: from HE1EUR02FT056.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e1d::50) by HE1EUR02HT034.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e1d::466) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2958.19; Tue, 5 May 2020 14:08:59 +0000 Original-Received: from VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e1d::42) by HE1EUR02FT056.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e1d::277) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2958.19 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 5 May 2020 14:08:59 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:9BB1F3CA1FE0448E06382190830FDD87E6635B09302E2362277E0D148A073C9B; UpperCasedChecksum:2A5270C23E6DD3EAF7C87E7B942341B69362BCF9B2912B3919D578274B10BAE1; SizeAsReceived:8232; Count:48 Original-Received: from VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::49f0:2314:a959:bec5]) by VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::49f0:2314:a959:bec5%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2958.030; Tue, 5 May 2020 14:08:59 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun, 03 May 2020 23:05:01 -0400") X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P193CA0117.EURP193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:85::22) To VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:ac::17) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87k11q8oed.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (90.230.29.56) by AM6P193CA0117.EURP193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:85::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2979.26 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 5 May 2020 14:08:58 +0000 X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87k11q8oed.fsf@live.com> X-TMN: [akKoCr3daexDECIudKj5/TWoz4XLTsFc] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 48 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: d9846a7a-54a3-4d7e-538b-08d7f0fddb42 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: HE1EUR02HT034: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: TBnk2WSp4MwKPeucgKapnNAgJdQ12zRRMxBfuzKY54J/g1AkbiWz7XwLzZKPPk3fQSpku8ZMv7dP4f7RORb0mqJqFckF9CQ5uOPovaZZ+1zka2M1r8qrBPGscX7SRRGSKcK8CJlYrgxBlvPTG4AtCprYwdNMn2qEv2Tm7nRFL5tg4l+qmzPrgqOvMPGKB/zhVv68f3OtzocT6gVCodJSWKFGa15sy4zqtyHNEmwU8B/y6FJDIyuEsrU50in+d2TI X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:0; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:; DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: Fo58OCWZzY89OxkgICkg1iHxch0WiU7kNyrn0G1JBZ1f5Nkm6Yn8HsZP0NHNaIRueC+RzUBB3WIxg/mp56Bg2we4f8dUqAed/P2fgFixg2wfCN4LHRdl03ED+qoHyHlBAtdgIWKgo815nJzXGHfiXA== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d9846a7a-54a3-4d7e-538b-08d7f0fddb42 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2020 14:08:59.5951 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR02HT034 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.67.47; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/05 10:09:00 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248991 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Seems > > like world has realized power of open source, which is great. > > If people have realized the usefulness of the existing free programs, > that is good. > > If people realize the value of the _freedom_ that free software gives, > and learn to demand this freedom, that would be GREAT. > > Using the term "open source" tends to cover up that crucial point. > For the free software movement, that is self-defeating. So please > let's make an effort to call our work "free", "libre", or both -- not > "open". > > See https://gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html > for more explanation of the difference between free software and open > source. See also https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-meme-hustler for > Evgeny Morozov's article on the same point. Yes of course RMS, I am completely with you when it comes to free software and freedom. I definitely appreciate all you have done through history, not less initiating everything. It is just that sometimes, in everyday speech we don't always use official, full, long names for stuff or hard distinctions because we tend to shortcut things in speech. It happends in all languages, fields of human activity etc. So we don't always say GNU/Linux, we say Linux even when we mean GNU/Linux, just as we don't always say Microsoft Windows but just Windows, or Apple OSX but just OSX etc. Same thing happened there, I said open source as an umbrella term, with no wishes diminish value of free software or not being aware of distinction. As a side not, personally I think that once most people realize the power of community collaboration and openess, which might be happening, maybe there will even not be a need for enforcing "freeiness" as with GPL3, just as we don't need a law to enforce other things in life when they become peoples identity becuase people wish to do those things anyway. But maybe it is just utopia thinking, don't know, but I think both "open source" and "free software" is on the raise (just my personal opinion).