From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: solarized Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 16:55:01 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87ft7hvbmu.fsf@protesilaos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15564"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Protesilaos Stavrou Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 17 16:59:39 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kIvNq-0003w6-Dq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2020 16:59:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58844 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIvNp-0000CO-Ba for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/17 10:55:03 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256008 Archived-At: Protesilaos Stavrou writes: >> If those are not enough for some extreme case, user can always do what >> they do now, specify rgb value directly; but for *most* part, hopefully >> 16 colors would be enough. Nobody said it has to be enough for >> *everybody everywhere*. > > That is always an option. My impression, however, is that we are > thinking about how to improve upon the state of affairs. One such way > is to offer more complete face/colour coverage for everyone (and they > can still configure it afterwards). To that I also add the > accessibility angle. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of this > discussion, so please accept my apologies. No need to apologize, I tottaly understand you; I am not trying to be hars or personal either. I am just trying to say that it is probably impossible to aim to give a solution that will always work for everyone. I think it is usually good enough to give a solution that work for the most of people most of the time. Another solution, instead of solarized way of thinking (base & accented colors), would be to give an array such as base16 theme generator does (linked in some other mail in the discussion), and guide users to think in terms of: use "upper part" of colors for base elements (gui background, fg, etc), use lower part for accent colors in order of importance (just as an idea). The array could be as much as 256 if number of colors is needed, but I still think 16~32 would do :-). The most important part is not number of colors, but framework so everyone, Emacs internals as well as third party packages use same parametrized names for colors (or faces as corrected by Thomas). > These are all interesting and fecund. A good design must avoid > exaggerations, rainbow effects, and design for its own sake. > > This, however, is an indictment against poorly implemented themes, > though not extended colour palettes as such. Your attached screenshot > uses what looks like ~14 colours. Indeed! For the 99% of 3rd party packages (might be an exaggaration :-)), default foreground color is probably what they should use but programmers believe they have to color code every property differently and we get things to look as they do. Maybe some of such design issues can be avoided if there was a framework and user guide telling people something in line: Use base-1~base-N for the colors of main elements (mostly theme creators would care about those); use accent-1 ~ accent-N if you wish your text to stand out in the GUI. Then give them a limited number of colors to use and they might use color coding more sparingly. If the given amount of colors is not enough they can always go into rgb valley and pick some, but probably less will do so then what they do now. (I have no scientific proof, just my opinion :-)).