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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/12 08:15:45 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255319 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:04:48 +0300 >> From: Eli Zaretskii >> Cc: rekado@elephly.net, ghe@sdf.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, drew.adams@oracle.com, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> > Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:57:44 +0200 >> > From: Ergus >> > Cc: rekado@elephly.net, ghe@sdf.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, >> > drew.adams@oracle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru >> > >> > The mode will substitute undo with undo-only. This small contradiction >> > will start a war here. >> >> As long as we keep this on the menu and the tool bar, there will be no >> reason for a "war". >> >> > >> Having undo with an undo-redo in the same "state" could be confusing as >> > >> the normal undo could do also redo IMO. >> > > >> > >If the user uses the menus or the tool bar, the confusion will be >> > >spared, right? >> > > >> > If the user expects undo-only behavior; then having our undo will be >> > confusing because not expecting undo becoming a redo at some point. >> >> How can it be confusing that 2 different commands produce different >> results? Why isn't it confusing today, when we already have these 2 >> commands? >> >> > IMO we should have one (undo) or the other (undo-only + undo-edor) but >> > not mix them by default. >> >> Whether to mix them or not is up to the user. > > To clarify: I'm not opposed to your proposal of having a special mode, > I just think it's an unnecessary complication, and actually flies in > the face of our desire to make Emacs easier for newbies: a mode that > is not turned on by default needs to be discovered and turned on, > before its benefits can be apparent. Having these commands available > by default doesn't have this disadvantage. They don't need to know that it is a mode and it can be on by default. Users just need to know it is a "feature" which they can switch off or on. Being a mode could be just an so called implemetation detail. I don't see personally what extra a mode brings in, but when it comes to discoverability it can still be "just a feature".