From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:46:26 +0200 Message-ID: References: <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdwjais.fsf@yahoo.com> <6a198677-41b6-4dbd-39d0-2b01550d53cf@yandex.ru> <32f6a2ce-e30f-059f-dcd4-233d666a10a1@yandex.ru> <87r1whiape.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87blnjopd0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <83v9lregx0.fsf@gnu.org> <87sgguh9we.fsf@fastmail.fm> <83mu72ckjr.fsf@gnu.org> <87o8rhpeym.fsf@fastmail.fm> <83eesdb37v.fsf@gnu.org> <87pn9ytlc5.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="44230"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Joost Kremers , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ricardo Wurmus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 17 05:47:29 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jlP2v-000BPg-8F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:47:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53910 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jlP2u-0002b4-9g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 23:47:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56298) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jlP23-0002BR-AQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 23:46:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oln040092066093.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.66.93]:24462 helo=EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jlP20-00028v-Ao; Tue, 16 Jun 2020 23:46:34 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=PZxTfWgNZvimxjt+RpaEkSkFG2pv+HlVkA45WNPNqhNqYJWcz88ArfzmaCLK6lY8I8T3t5KXqKTPgyZnsW715vWZAx24tYGqR6cfTPCca98hWfLbrNQSKilWisoHqzVI6Hk36ME15cvNNUeE8t7zeOuaG3sO9D1FvnXUfB5mM0qD4Ay9DcOm7ceH9bDZ8pX8ujN/nruVg+9+LGc90CkMX8Fc1gY5eUWiiIdITZyTSQEMUbGQ5gbyHHHmXmx+O5eLx5BJOIFv+yc74/5Ypn61+xFMGzHVVZxf6ZwiHYJvZp9VuUN9qKGFTaVlZSoieP/6d3iyDpdPQ455+1yBatgJWQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=e7FPlpTxAmKv3yCZ/Gap9/3mpwy057KGJWbI03h1nBQ=; b=MAnBx8V2OkuIoJhsVwvF0DmGr+cgK5TiNafkMObA/Uw3O16qIqcmGxASbfB75d2V0wdK16ZKpzHxsGSJLXMGeVU8vcd5f8H3IfTATOC32Y+iEIOssE+EFXOlP5dmITNgZGBElcfiPphVnUa0LES8dy9WBBBKY/67XSaXq+a2kFpLSUg+BWge3sZ/9OYwX2k8lC+8dkNgXVb4qy23KZWvo2tekBUGEg1ObChSac3xdFvkqa2imsykM/MQ/Stto50LfKnYG6OkOvrIYSVXaOq4e3HYKrWWgGQ7W7EJ2LBYja4Nl+a7/6MJDmw/si64SCC6Y7cF5ldqn9rIA4UWtjetmg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=e7FPlpTxAmKv3yCZ/Gap9/3mpwy057KGJWbI03h1nBQ=; b=gN+YS7+DfctxRuth/SaHI0fUdCibpp3nOFHcTR/WZds/JCc4Cq2J5/awtrd4lZ6AYj8oCK+Mfhujn2iSJf9OEon+2Tk/Ic9vW0qWt8Cq+7zd+9vryWZg4oR3QghEsy0MmEvVzKF7AtR2366+sA43euLpzzEVRYxuCSpZpSLVdm4JS1hoZLsAd6KTU/Mqk87KIM8y0br+4pVcrv4YywDvf5kHQelu/xC/tmRUE43ONaP8yjveD2+rkZqhY5iEueqN+ViAoWfeoGzcqyheqatEC0JpvoR5f0n3VRWQkVT7GNK5Nn3KMGC30OSzJfVaFPL2MeZolMQgl+5uPQIQZMWuFQ== Original-Received: from VE1EUR01FT039.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e19::48) by VE1EUR01HT206.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e19::502) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3088.18; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 03:46:28 +0000 Original-Received: from VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e19::51) by VE1EUR01FT039.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:7e19::291) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3088.18 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 03:46:28 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:8712FFBCBE5EB566987577960D5C4EEC9448445D77A11E606457F77E0FC7D8F5; UpperCasedChecksum:C01F7AE637EBBFDA58568D5CF0BCA2F73C65B42F6FBC8F2BD17004F210957C81; SizeAsReceived:9510; Count:48 Original-Received: from VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::485f:2120:63bb:92c]) by VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::485f:2120:63bb:92c%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3088.028; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 03:46:28 +0000 In-Reply-To: <87pn9ytlc5.fsf@elephly.net> (Ricardo Wurmus's message of "Wed, 17 Jun 2020 05:36:26 +0200") X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P195CA0085.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:86::26) To VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:803:ac::17) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87blli4anh.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Original-Received: from pascal.homepc (90.230.29.56) by AM6P195CA0085.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:86::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3088.21 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 17 Jun 2020 03:46:27 +0000 X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87blli4anh.fsf@live.com> X-TMN: [tH/qL0MKENQrHle0orPfVz5bGKW82j5i] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 48 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 16eeeb31-fe3c-41d6-e8aa-08d8127103b7 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VE1EUR01HT206: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: nIGdrCJkd6/ypRabmI4XuHwxpT2pcPlVl+ff8KKTknU4Rnnr3jaC9FmJfScN/TOW26MtFAm5AQ6XLLmsGPC6rCTNkeKza4SkFtA9cq8tDkT29YiQFBse/2LsLysFSI0ocPCvoYUGva3C212IyHQIL7IsVPfjNTA9+6jQo4J7LBOY4naVd66LOR7o6R3tjbzgWGl1ezp092/HkEjSvrnqVbm8t3kUlVCV3qQF93aKSkfKwVRomozpvn7a7uMNJOkS X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:0; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:VI1PR06MB4526.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:; DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: ONPCBxWYoLu4p/W75I6K2oWw609ODrB8uzqUuv41Z/CTG+I/5Kx7iia5entlmDeXLb+JsTvCCVrpZXobxCklm9RFkAuatdTzI3HGVku+qpIM8k0WJGY6jroa/nUAz5uOsuXyt02GRjGkm2VyZnLCNg== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 16eeeb31-fe3c-41d6-e8aa-08d8127103b7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2020 03:46:28.0841 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR01HT206 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.66.93; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/06/16 23:46:28 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -37 X-Spam_score: -3.8 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:252283 Archived-At: Ricardo Wurmus writes: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> From: Joost Kremers >>> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:36:49 +0200 > [=E2=80=A6] >>> The=20 >>> point is, I need to know Org syntax anyway to do each single thing=20 >>> separately. Integrating them doesn't require a deeper level of=20 >>> knowledge than I already have. >> >> Unless I misunderstand what you mean by "Org syntax", I don't think >> users who want to create documents with Org should be required to know >> that syntax. Instead, there should be commands to help them produce >> correctly formatted snippets. Compare that with Texinfo commands >> which produce the various syntactic elements of the language. > > I would like to not have to bother with Org syntax at all, but after > using the commands that produce it I see that syntax. It can be very > confusing to see an unfamiliar syntax after issuing a command =E2=80=94 w= hat > parts of it may I edit? When I accidentally remove parts of it, how can > I restore the full syntax? > > Two things would help here, in my opinion: > > * hide the textual representation. > > My Org mode configuration replaces =E2=80=9C*=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9C**=E2= =80=9D, =E2=80=9C***=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9C****=E2=80=9D with > =E2=80=9Cbullets=E2=80=9D like "=E2=97=89", "=E2=97=8B", "=E2=97=87", a= nd "=E2=97=87". I can produce them either by > tying =E2=80=9C*=E2=80=9D (if I know that syntax) or by using M-RET and= S-right. Org > mode hides the syntax for URLs when [[=E2=80=A6][=E2=80=A6]] is used an= d displays just > an underlined and clickable URL. > > For source code blocks I replace =E2=80=9C#+begin_src=E2=80=9D and =E2= =80=9C#+end_src=E2=80=9D with > markers like =E2=9C=8E and =E2=96=A1 and set the block visually apart b= y customizing > the faces. (See https://pank.eu/blog/pretty-babel-src-blocks.html) > > * delete the whole construct instead of deleting characters. Currently, > it is easy to end up with invalid syntax by deleting parts of the > markup text. Deleting the trailing =E2=80=9Cc=E2=80=9D of =E2=80=9C#+e= nd_src=E2=80=9D at the end of a > source code block, for example, breaks that code block but leaves the > =E2=80=9C#+begin_src=E2=80=9D and now incomplete =E2=80=9C#+end_sr=E2= =80=9D where they are. I need to > know that I have to append a =E2=80=9Cc=E2=80=9D at the end to restore = the code > block. There is no command I can run to =E2=80=9Crepair=E2=80=9D this = code block. > Maybe it would be good to remove the whole textual markup at once, > leaving only the user-provided text that was marked up. > > By making it impossible or very unlikely to produce incorrect markup and > by hiding the markup syntax itself the user wouldn=E2=80=99t have to lear= n it > and also wouldn=E2=80=99t be exposed to it accidentally. > > At that point the syntax itself becomes secondary; this would then be > similar to how enriched-mode works. When I accidentally delete a part of markup, usually '[' or ']' in a link, it is immidiately reflected visually in the buffer so I just undo to "restore". For me it is just C-S--. But I do agree it would be usefull to make some markup "atomic", like for example "#+BEGIN_SRC", "#+END_SRC". But for some other markup it might be difficult. For example leading '*': sometimes it might be a misstake, but sometimes it might be intentionally, for example to change hte heading from say *** to **.=20