From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Drop the Copyright Assignment requirement for Emacs Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 16:34:03 +0200 Message-ID: References: <3c558381-f584-a2e5-972e-007221347f16@yandex.ru> <20200519075551.GE7874@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="117640"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 19 16:35:16 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jb3Kt-000UPW-Cx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/19 10:34:04 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250931 Archived-At: writes: > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 07:26:10AM +0200, Philippe Vaucher wrote: >> > (and I do note you'd still have to go through the horrors of finding a >> > pen and paper in your office and manually using your arms to hold >> > it up to the webcam) >>=20 >> Please, I said 3 times already that YOU JUST TYPE YOUR NAME ON YOUR >> KEYBOARD, or attach an image. Yes, that's how I did in in Adobe Sign >> (just typed "Philippe Vaucher" on my keyboard). The only thing it did >> is the name was displayed using a hand-written font. Surely this >> cannot be complicated to duplicate. I already said all this. > > But anyone can type your name on her keyboard. I can type it. Am > I now signing something for you? Is it valid before court? > > That's the "interesting" problem. Yelling doesn't solve it :) > > Now you'd say that I could forge your signature on paper and send > it in, but traditional trust into something like that is a tad > higher, and I see two reasons for that: (a) it is more difficult > to get hold of a physical signature of yours to do the forging, > and (b) there is significantly more expertise in place to detect > forged signatures. > > Now PGP/GPG might be a technically perfect solution to the problem, > but effective deployment has been hindered, not last by entities > hoping to make quick cash of that and seeing a free solution > threatening their pie-in-the-sky business plans. > > The situation is what it is, alas. > >> Sorry for yelling but maybe with caps it's more clear. > > Nevermind, but I think you're still missing the point: at the > moment the FSF ends before court over some copyright spat (and > there have been high-profile ones, they can be hellishly > expensive, see [1] if you think you've got some time to kill), > at this moment the FSF will have to prove that it has done its > due diligence... and no, Someone (TM) at the other end of an > HTTPS connection saying "yeah, sure, it's me" probably won't > cut it. > > Solutions [2] welcome. Especially if they aren't spiked all over > with Surveillance Capitalism :-) > > Cheers > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group%2C_Inc._v._International_Busi= ness_Machines_Corp. > [2] Sometimes I dream of decentralized FSF "delegates", one > in each small village, who can sign someone's public GPG > key. Then I wake up and realize that I'm re-inventing the > web of trust, and I hear "PGP? But that's really hard", > and keep wondering where that sick meme comes from. Sigh. > > -- tom=C3=A1s > > -- tom=C3=A1s Could the problem be attacked from some other angle? It is about defending in court room? What do you defend in court room? Copyright (stolen code), patent (stolen idea) and licence (stolen right to use the code)? Or do I missunderstand? If someone steel code from some other place, and some company sues for copyright infrigement, that can equally well happen with current signed process? Can't it? Some random Joe can send in their paperwork, get through the process and still send in some code that infringes on someones copyright. I don't see how is current paperwork a guarantee against code theft. Patent and licence infrigement are probably analogus, so I don't think you have a guarantee that this will not happen even with current process in-place. Yes, FSF has done what it can to ask you to assure you aren't doing shady stuff, but that can be asked even without paperwork in some simpler way. No other FOSS projects have this kind of collaboration demand, are they wrong or bad, I don't know, but many of them has existed for a blink of time compared to Emacs and have yet surpassed Emacs in term of users, collaboration etc. I believe that more users means more developers which means more development and (maybe) better software. What about stealth the other way around; if somebody does not take it and not give back the source code? Does FSF really need to have the copyright assigned to itself in order to defend someones GPL code? Or could that assignment happen on case-by-case basis when the situation arise= s?