From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: arthur miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Request for partecipating in the project Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 01:50:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87imm86mwq.fsf@mbork.pl>, Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_VI1P194MB04290F651CC778AB3537E157962E0VI1P194MB0429EURP_" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="11862"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: Sam Qasbah , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Tim Cross , Marcin Borkowski Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 23 02:51:52 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ijCss-0002pk-AC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:243574 Archived-At: --_000_VI1P194MB04290F651CC778AB3537E157962E0VI1P194MB0429EURP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Isn't epub developed to be electroncal version of printed books, so that el= ectronicall books can keep same logical layout (chapters, paragraphs, pages= , etc) as their physical counterparts? Probably not a deal breaker, but sof= tware documentation maybe is not really suitable for that kind of publishin= g. I think Emacs help is great, but I really miss great overview over the API = as found for example in javadoc. When it comes to accessibility I am not sure if epub offers you that much m= ore of accessibility options then you get from in html, but I might be wron= g. Anyway there is a good guide on making information accessible to visuall= y impaired people: https://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttps://www.sabeusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2= 014/02/A-Guide-to-Making-Documents-Accessible-to-People-Who-are-Blind-or-Vi= sually-Impaired.pdf&sa=3DU&ved=3D2ahUKEwjS-9e-0MrmAhWHlYsKHcJ9BZ0QFjACegQIB= hAB&usg=3DAOvVaw3P809blo61Vmg1IzcMSZ6M Just as a note. Skickat fr=E5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. -------- Originalmeddelande -------- Fr=E5n: Tim Cross Datum: 2019-12-23 01:04 (GMT+01:00) Till: Marcin Borkowski Kopia: arthur miller , Sam Qasbah , emacs-devel@gnu.org =C4mne: Re: Request for partecipating in the project There is no single ebook-friendly format. Different ebook readers are bette= r/worse with different formats (mobi, epub, etc). Therefore, we probably ne= ed to be a little more explicit when talking about ebook formats. One of the advantages of some ebook formats, such as epub, is that they can= be more accessible for the blind and vision impaired than PDF or even HTML= . There are at least two packages I'm aware of which will allow epub format= ted books to also be read directly in Emacs. My experience with Calibre is that the quality of the output you get depend= s on both the quality of input (e.g. poorly structured or poorly tagged PDF= s will result in poor conversion) and on the settings of Calibre itself (of= which there is quite a lot). I'm not sure how well Emacs documentation wil= l convert. My experience with PDFs generated from Latex is not good as Late= x is very weak with respect to accessibility and generating modern tagged P= DF documents. On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 at 09:01, Marcin Borkowski > wrote: On 2019-12-22, at 22:38, arthur miller > wrote: > Skickat fr=E5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. > > >> The ebook format allows you to consult the > manual with a smartphone, t= ablet or epub-> > reader. > > Both my smartphone and my tablet read Emacs manual perfectly fine in html= format in browser, and I am sure if I wanted to read manuals in pdf format= they would work perfectly fine too. What does epub brings that html or pdf= does not? Personally I don't even like pdf. AFAIK, ebook readers can render HTML, but work much better with dediacted formats. FWIW, I converted the Emacs manuals to an ebook-reader-friendly format many years ago, and automatic conversion resulted in a very poor experience. If someone volunteers to do a better job than Calibri, I'm all for it!!! Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl -- regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --_000_VI1P194MB04290F651CC778AB3537E157962E0VI1P194MB0429EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Isn't epub developed to be electroncal version of printed= books, so that electronicall books can keep same logical layout (chapters,= paragraphs, pages, etc) as their physical counterparts? Probably not a dea= l breaker, but software documentation maybe is not really suitable for that kind of publishing.

I think Emacs help is great, but I really miss great over= view over the API as found for example in javadoc. 

When it comes to accessibility I am not sure if epub offe= rs you that much more of accessibility options then you get from in html, b= ut I might be wrong. Anyway there is a good guide on making information acc= essible to visually impaired people: 

https://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttps://www.sabeusa.org/wp= -content/uploads/2014/02/A-Guide-to-Making-Documents-Accessible-to-People-W= ho-are-Blind-or-Visually-Impaired.pdf&sa=3DU&ved=3D2ahUKEwjS-9e-0Mr= mAhWHlYsKHcJ9BZ0QFjACegQIBhAB&usg=3DAOvVaw3P809blo61Vmg1IzcMSZ6M

Just as a note.

Skickat fr=E5n min= Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.



-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=E5n: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
Datum: 2019-12-23 01:04 (GMT+01:00)
Till: Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl>
Kopia: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>, Sam Qasbah <sa= mqasbah@gmail.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
=C4mne: Re: Request for partecipating in the project

There is no single ebook-friendly format. Different ebook readers are = better/worse with different formats (mobi, epub, etc). Therefore, we probab= ly need to be a little more explicit when talking about ebook formats.

One of the advantages of some ebook formats, such as epub, is that the= y can be more accessible for the blind and vision impaired than PDF or even= HTML. There are at least two packages I'm aware of which will allow epub f= ormatted books to also be read directly in Emacs. 

My experience with Calibre is that the quality of the output you get d= epends on both the quality of input (e.g. poorly structured or poorly tagge= d PDFs will result in poor conversion) and on the settings of Calibre itsel= f (of which there is quite a lot). I'm not sure how well Emacs documentation will convert. My experience with= PDFs generated from Latex is not good as Latex is very weak with respect t= o accessibility and generating modern tagged PDF documents.

On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 at 09:01, Marcin = Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> wrot= e:

On 2019-12-22, at 22:38, arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com> wrote:

> Skickat fr=E5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
>
>
>> The ebook format allows you to consult the > manual with a smar= tphone, tablet or epub-> > reader.
>
> Both my smartphone and my tablet read Emacs manual perfectly fine in h= tml format in browser, and I am sure if I wanted to read manuals in pdf for= mat they would work perfectly fine too. What does epub brings that html or = pdf does not? Personally I don't even like pdf.

AFAIK, ebook readers can render HTML, but work much better with
dediacted formats.

FWIW, I converted the Emacs manuals to an ebook-reader-friendly format
many years ago, and automatic conversion resulted in a very poor
experience.  If someone volunteers to do a better job than Calibri, I'= m
all for it!!!

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski
http://mbo= rk.pl



--
regards,

Tim

--
Tim Cross

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