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Sat, 11 Nov 2023 18:31:35 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312598 Archived-At: > > My goal would be like this: > > - keep cl-lib available to it's current extent for end users > > - try to get unnecessary cl-lib uses out of the code base > > - make useful cl ideas available in the core language >=20 > These are exactly our goals. We've been doing this for years: that's > how stuff like 'when', 'unless', 'push', 'pop', and others got into > the core. Great. But I think this happened without any particular, explicit program/goal to discover/discuss/understand which things are the candidate "useful cl ideas" to consider. Nothing wrong with that lack of explicit goal, per se. But it speaks a bit to the situation or problem you raise of some people being too eager to use/include whatever they personally want ("unconstrained liberty of using all or most"): > The problem (at least my problem) is that some of the people in this > discussion don't agree with this cautious and slow approach. They > want the unconstrained liberty of using all or most of cl-lib and its > extra libraries everywhere, and they consider any request to avoid > using these facilities an unacceptable pressure. They basically want > cl-lib, cl-extra, etc. preloaded and always available for use, > regardless of the aspects you mention above and without any > restrictions. I think that Michael's follow-on point/goal, which you didn't comment on, would help with that problem you raised, because it would be less likely to always remain a question of all-or-nothing change or personal preference:=20 And: one main problem we have is that cl-lib is more or less a huge monolithic block (as a `require'able library). Why not split it up? =20 > We use keyword arguments when there are many of them, or when a few of > them are obscure and rarely used. From where I stand, the dispute is > not about banishing then -- that will not happen -- the dispute is > about how _much_ to use them. I suggested we start with considering more use of :key and :test, IOW, look for places where those might simplify things. (And no, that doesn't mean we need to add them here & there willy nilly, e.g. get rid of `memq'.)