From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Adding use-package to core Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 22:03:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <838rkels13.fsf@gnu.org-NGltIw7----9> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32727"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: xenodasein--- viaEmacs development discussions. , Eli Zaretskii , "stefankangas@gmail.com" To: John Wiegley , "xenodasein@tutanota.de" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 13 23:03:57 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ouL51-0008H3-Em for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299757 Archived-At: > To me, use-package and package.el are mainly orthogonal: > Package.el is for package management (installing, updating, > removing), while use-package is for customization beyond > what Customize provides -- or at least allows you to > concentrate changes related to the same package in one place. Speaking/asking from ignorance here... 1. "Customization beyond what Customize provides" What kinds of such customization, besides the one you call out next (#2)? 2. "allows you to concentrate changes related to the same package in one place" Can you be more specific here? How does what you have in mind differ from what customize groups provide? _____ For #2, a package can even have a group with subgroups. And a package has parent groups. Seems to me that not only do Customize groups let you concentrate changes in one place, but they even let you do so in a hierarchical way (a graph, i.e., hierarchies with sharing), that is, change your focus of concentration. This applies for both browsing/discovering and changing settings. Examples at different ends of the grouping spectrum: `M-x customize-group bookmark-plus' shows 114 options and faces. Flat: no subgroups. On the other hand, group `Icicles' has nine subgroups. `M-x customize-group Icicles' shows the following, where each parent group and subgroup name links to its `customize-group' presentation: ______ Parent groups: Matching Completion Apropos Dabbrev Help Recentf Minibuffer Convenience Icicles group:=20 State : visible group members are all at standard values. Minibuffer input completion and cycling of completion candidates. See also Doc-Part1, Doc-Part2, Description, Download, Other Libraries by Drew, and Send Bug Report. hexrgb-canonicalize-defined-colors-flag=20 Non-nil means remove duplicate color names. More icicle-completion-style-sets=20 Possible 'completion-styles' values for when 'TAB' completion method is 'vanilla'. Subgroups: Icicles-Buffers Icicles preferences related to buffers. Icicles-Completions-Display Icicles preferences related to display of completion candidates. Icicles-Files Icicles preferences related to files. Icicles-Key-Bindings Icicles preferences related to key bindings. Icicles-Key-Completion Icicles preferences related to key completion ('icicle-complete-keys'). Icicles-Matching Icicles preferences related to matching input for completion. Icicles-Minibuffer-Display Icicles preferences related to minibuffer display during completion. Icicles-Miscellaneous Miscellaneous Icicles preferences. Icicles-Searching Icicles preferences related to searching. _____ A guess is that you have in mind other _kinds_ of customizations, beyond options and faces. Is that it? Customize is limited, but it would be good to set straight which of its limitations `use-package' helps overcome. One guess would be key bindings. (The Emacs manual has two completely separate sections, `Easy Customization Interface' and `Customizing Key Bindings', with eight and ten subsections, respectively.) (`defcustom' now has :type `key-sequence', but that's of course only for customizing option values.) _____ To be clear, I'm not making any statement about either `use-package' or Customize. Certainly the Customize UI could be improved, and there are user customizations that Customize doesn't help with at all, OOTB. It might be good to match some of its limitations against what `use-package' offers to handle them. Maybe that's the best solution for them, or maybe it can serve as food for thought for improvement to Customize.