RE: [External] : Re: Adding use-package to core

[Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>]

> To me, use-package and package.el are mainly orthogonal:
> Package.el is for package management (installing, updating,
> removing), while use-package is for customization beyond
> what Customize provides -- or at least allows you to
> concentrate changes related to the same package in one place.

Speaking/asking from ignorance here...

1. "Customization beyond what Customize provides"

What kinds of such customization, besides the
one you call out next (#2)?

2. "allows you to concentrate changes related
to the same package in one place"

Can you be more specific here?  How does what
you have in mind differ from what customize
groups provide?

_____

For #2, a package can even have a group with
subgroups.  And a package has parent groups.
Seems to me that not only do Customize groups
let you concentrate changes in one place, but
they even let you do so in a hierarchical way
(a graph, i.e., hierarchies with sharing),
that is, change your focus of concentration.
This applies for both browsing/discovering
and changing settings.

Examples at different ends of the grouping
spectrum:

`M-x customize-group bookmark-plus' shows 114
options and faces.  Flat: no subgroups.

On the other hand, group `Icicles' has nine
subgroups. `M-x customize-group Icicles' shows
the following, where each parent group and
subgroup name links to its `customize-group'
presentation:
______

Parent groups: Matching Completion Apropos Dabbrev
               Help Recentf Minibuffer Convenience

Icicles group: 
     State : visible group members are all at standard values.

   Minibuffer input completion and cycling of completion candidates.

   See also Doc-Part1, Doc-Part2, Description, Download, Other
   Libraries by Drew, and Send Bug Report.

 hexrgb-canonicalize-defined-colors-flag 
   Non-nil means remove duplicate color names. More

 icicle-completion-style-sets 
   Possible 'completion-styles' values for when 'TAB' completion
   method is 'vanilla'.

Subgroups:
Icicles-Buffers
  Icicles preferences related to buffers.
Icicles-Completions-Display
  Icicles preferences related to display of completion candidates.
Icicles-Files
  Icicles preferences related to files.
Icicles-Key-Bindings
  Icicles preferences related to key bindings.
Icicles-Key-Completion
  Icicles preferences related to key completion
  ('icicle-complete-keys').
Icicles-Matching
  Icicles preferences related to matching input for completion.
Icicles-Minibuffer-Display
  Icicles preferences related to minibuffer display during
  completion.
Icicles-Miscellaneous
  Miscellaneous Icicles preferences.
Icicles-Searching
  Icicles preferences related to searching.
_____

A guess is that you have in mind other _kinds_
of customizations, beyond options and faces.
Is that it?

Customize is limited, but it would be good to
set straight which of its limitations
`use-package' helps overcome.

One guess would be key bindings.  (The Emacs
manual has two completely separate sections,
`Easy Customization Interface' and `Customizing
Key Bindings', with eight and ten subsections,
respectively.)  (`defcustom' now has :type
`key-sequence', but that's of course only for
customizing option values.)
_____

To be clear, I'm not making any statement about
either `use-package' or Customize.  Certainly
the Customize UI could be improved, and there
are user customizations that Customize doesn't
help with at all, OOTB.

It might be good to match some of its limitations
against what `use-package' offers to handle them.
Maybe that's the best solution for them, or maybe
it can serve as food for thought for improvement
to Customize.