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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:280846 Archived-At: > being able to install packages and extend > Emacs is a main feature and should be > introduced to new users early on. Is using the Customize UI in the tutorial? Is making simple customizations with Lisp in the tutorial? Is use of `custom-file' in the tutorial? Is use of the `Options' menu in the tutorial? Such simple customization is something to introduce at least as early as installing and deleting additional packages, no?=20 Is `load-path', `require', or `load-library' introduced in the tutorial? The stated raison d'etre for this change was merely that "_some people are not aware_ of the package management features of Emacs". How many nowadays _are_ aware of that "main feature" but are unaware of how to find and change a face or option value? How many are unaware of how to _ask Emacs_, to find out for themselves about such things? The whole discussion (by 3 people) of this change has been only about _where_ to add this topic - nothing about why to do so, or what other changes might be just as important or more so. Has it been shown that new users _are_ in general unaware of packages or unable to install them? Aside from questions about an early init file or `use-package' syntax etc., how many new users just ask "How do I install a package?" I don't see that come up, myself, on Reddit, StackExchange, help-gnu-emacs, etc., and I come across dozens (hundreds?), of new-user questions every day. A good indication of such a need might be the number of existing blogs, videos, etc. telling users how to install and delete a package - and how much they're used. Do we have an impression (or tally) of this? Is there a crying lack of such help? I don't say we shouldn't document this "main feature". But there might be other things that are at least as useful to introduce in the basic tutorial. (A tutorial can also just make users aware of feature XYZ and point to its doc, if step-by-step "learning by doing" isn't so urgent or important for that feature.)