From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 18:06:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <740A136F-8710-4F4C-BFC1-A3DB418447F4@gmail.com> <87r19nxx7x.fsf@gmail.com> <878rvv9esx.fsf@yahoo.com> <87fsq28x4l.fsf@yahoo.com> <87bl0q8vfa.fsf@yahoo.com> <83pmp69vsu.fsf@gnu.org> <8735m17l8c.fsf@yahoo.com> <875yqx5nub.fsf@yahoo.com> <83lezt8cm6.fsf@gnu.org> <871r1k38ym.fsf@gmail.com> <878rvs1i5a.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mtk8ywye.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6g8yql2.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17508"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Tim Cross , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 07 19:14:27 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n5tkt-0003z1-Id for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Fri, 7 Jan 2022 18:06:12 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Default custom file was: Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA Thread-Index: AQHYA5TEyRg93iqmYUuTMoi36bkxtaxXzlYg In-Reply-To: <87a6g8yql2.fsf@yahoo.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 376e2ce3-8277-41ac-bdba-08d9d208638a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR10MB3510:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:284431 Archived-At: > > The lack of lexical binding was longstanding. >=20 > The lack of lexical binding was a shortcoming. > A shortcoming is not behaviour, nor is it a feature. You don't like/get the example of lexical-binding. OK. Consider `transient-mark-mode'. Its existence in Emacs was status quo for a very long time, and the behavior was OFF. Until it wasn't - the status quo was changed to ON. Holy Toledo! That was a backward-incompatible change in behavior. It affected thousands of users. It took us _decades_ to get that change made. Status quo, status quo, status quo. And why was that change finally made? It's what those who decided expected that more users would expect & want. Users out in the wild expect to see text that they select to act on ("activated") be highlighted, so they can see what they'll act on. What was the effect on users who did NOT want `transient-mark-mode' on by default? They turned it off. End of story. Some muffled grumbles, nothing more. Why? Because you can still use Emacs as before - just turn `t-m-mode' off (Customize). Happy campers all around. Why didn't we go all the way toward what most new users out there really expected, which is something more like `delete-selection-mode' (which turns on `transient-mark-mode')? Why stop with `t-m-mode', which corresponds to neither what users get outside Emacs nor what Emacs behavior is with `t-m-mode' off? We should have, IMO. Not enough weight to balance the rotund body of Status Quo. I've been betting on `delete-selection-mode' being turned on by default after a few decades, but it's already been a few decades now... (I'm still betting on that happening sometime.) I'm as strong a proponent of not rocking the status-quo boat as anyone. And opinions can certainly differ about whether `custom-file' should default to a file name. But what's the downside of changing such a default change? A relatively few users - those who remain wedded to using only their init file - would need to set `custom-file' to their init file (or to nil, if we interpret that as using the init file after the default change). A big deal? I don't think so. Just like it ultimately wasn't a big deal to turn on `transient-mark-mode' by default. > > The absence of a `custom-file' by default is "relied on"? How so? >=20 > Emacs would start to behave differently for people who did > not explictly set custom-file if it gained a default value. Yes, and? Anyone can rely on the behavior they've long relied on and enjoyed, by just setting `custom-file' to their init file. End of story. > > How so? Are you talking about a minority of users having to > > explicitly say that they don't want a separate file - e.g. simply > > setting `custom-file' to nil? >=20 > You may call them a "minority", but all people are important. There is > no need to cause useless churn for people, just because some other > people have differing preferences. In the case of `transient-mark-mode' I'd wager that the _vast_ majority - maybe 90% - of existing Emacs users had `t-m-mode' off when the default was switched to on. And I'd wager that a minority of them bothered to switch it to off after the default changed. And today I'm guessing that relatively few Emacs users set it to off. It's not only about individual preferences, and especially not only about _current_ ones. It's also about what we expect will be best for most users, and in particular most users in the future. Most Emacs users are future users, not current users. What's the best behavior for them? I think it's to separate the file that Customize writes to from their init file. But _every_ user will have a simple, trivial, quick, one-time way to get the behavior they prefer: just set `custom-file' to the file they want Customize to write to, whether that be their init file or another file. Sensible behavior by default for everyone. Individual preferences respected. Happy campers, all. When the default of `transient-mark-mode' was switched we definitely had in mind potential/future users as well as current ones. > > I'm assuming you agree it's generally better, for more people than > > not, to use a separate `custom-file'. >=20 > Yes, I agree. If this discussion was started at the introduction of > `custom-file', then I would certainly have argued for it to have a > default value. That's the right starting point, to think about what the behavior should be. Next comes the question about how much of a disturbance changing to that design would cause. > > There are more future than past users, and for a new=20 > > user the "other thing" of longstanding habit doesn't apply. >=20 > How many future users there will be is for > the future to say, not for the present,=20 The exact number, sure. But not the relative number. Unless Emacs is blown off the globe it's certain that there will be more users in the future than there are today. > where changing the default value will only > serve to churn the already muddy waters. Diehards who said the same thing about turning on `transient-mark-mode' will admit today that their alarmism was misplaced. They still live happily with `transient-mark-mode' turned off, as their personal preference. Really not a big deal, though they didn't think so at the time.