From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: [PATCH] Package Installation in Tutorial Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 18:16:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <864k7ro07p.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <835ys47pzx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10484"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Daniel Fleischer , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 04 19:17:33 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtZbI-0002Uo-A5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 19:17:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55490 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtZbG-0004Ke-8Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:280932 Archived-At: > No need to differentiate and point out different opinions in the > community, it's a good thing. I wouldn't want to stifle opinions, > especially from people like Drew, whose work and commitment speaks for > themselves. >=20 > It's just I never thought about data-driven development around here. > Everyone has an agenda, working on features they care about; at least > discussions are conducted where people convince the maintainers in the > necessity of the change, but almost never by using data/polls. I > remember the Emacs survey of 2020; it was a private initiative (not FSF) > with almost no impact on discussions here; at least that was my > impression. >=20 > I see the value of conservatism in the survival of Emacs up to this > point. Obviously Emacs can grow in a proactive manner as well, in > addition to a reactive manner of fixing things enough people complained > about, per the criteria mentioned previously. FWIW, I agree with pretty much everything Daniel has said, both here and in previous messages in this thread, and with the way he's presented and argued for his proposal. He's not only tried to offer reasons, but he's also appreciated questions and doubts about it, instead of being defensive. He's clearly open and positive. Very glad he's helping with Emacs. And I hope he doesn't get burned out by perceived hostility or negativity. Whether this particular thing gets added to the basic tutorial or not, there's little doubt that such help, in one form or another, could benefit some new users (and some old users, including me, FWIW). ___ The number of people who've provided extremely valuable help, including outstanding features, to the Emacs community, and who've given up trying (or never bothered to try) to participate in direct development of vanilla Emacs, is not insignificant. That is what it is. Those folks haven't stopped contributing to Emacs, in their own ways, and they clearly love it. ___ [And no, I'm not talking about myself there. I do still participate directly (emacs-devel, bug reports, help-gnu-emacs). I guess I can stand the heat, or maybe I'm a glutton for punishment ;-).]