From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 15:38:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> <877cpfybhf.fsf@yahoo.com> <873503y66i.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31632"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , "luangruo@yahoo.com" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Arthur Miller , Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 08 17:39:59 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qedaR-00082b-IL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310337 Archived-At: FWIW, +1 for your mail, Arthur - pretty much each of the points you made. ___ As one who's used CL (long ago) but is no expert about it or Elisp or Lisp generally, I happen to agree about the usefulness of keyword args _for users_. I can't really speak to implementation, compilation, maintenance, etc., all of which are of course also important. AFAIK there has never been a real, open, serious discussion about keyword args for Elisp. And (I think) I've always respected the decision to not bring up the question. But I do appreciate it being at least _presented_, if not put on the table for outright discussion. In general, I like that Richard speaks up and decides, and I generally agree with his judgments as helmsman. But on this one my own experience tells me something different. Not that I have any interesting opposing arguments. Nor do I want to argue about this. But my experience with CL has led me to appreciate the ease and handiness of using keyword args. Argument order, and the need to provide all args up through the last optional one you really want to provide, are an unnecessary burden on human readers of code. Writers too, of course, but it's more important that code be clear for readers (including writers as readers). Unnecessary burden. So Occam asks "Why then?". In his role as _implementer_ of a language Occam might ask "Why bother with keywords args?" But in his role as user I think his question would be "Why always need to know & respect arg order?" I also haven't noticed that having named arguments is detrimental to code that analyses or generates code. I have some, but less, experience with that - maybe it's something to consider; dunno. ___ That's likely all I'll say about this. Just one opinion. Keyword args can be incredibly useful _for users_.