From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: discoverability, better defaults and which-key in Emacs Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2024 15:25:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <874jetaxri.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <86fryc1vsh.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1c398u8.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <867cjnz7rc.fsf@gnu.org> <87jznnbbax.fsf@dataswamp.org> <86v877xqez.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34984"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Eli Zaretskii , Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 02 16:26:56 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rVvRP-0008sb-Gu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Fri, 2 Feb 2024 15:25:24 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: discoverability, better defaults and which-key in Emacs Thread-Index: AQHaVauN4hgW9IU5r0CyWOybgkgu37D3JttA In-Reply-To: <86v877xqez.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|SJ0PR10MB4800:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f450ed7d-c13b-4234-c722-08dc24032d78 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315753 Archived-At: > > Another case is finding code in core Emacs and in ELPA to do > > stuff so one don't spend time writing Elisp for that oneself. > > This is an area where I failed big time myself. Maybe today > > googling can offer more as much more code is available online? >=20 > The Emacs apropos commands, if used wisely, should help you. You > might find that some of our documentation needs to be enhanced to make > discoverability easier, in which case please report the deficiencies, > so we could make this better. >=20 > > I for one would be very interested to know what of my Elisp > > I can discard in favor of using stuff in core Emacs. > > But I don't have a confident answer how to find out. >=20 > Some Emacs commands I suggest for this are: > C-u M-x apropos > M-x apropos-documentation > C-h R elisp RET followed by 'i' (Info-index) and the subject +1 to all of that. ___ The most important aid for users - esp. but not only new users - is IMHO for them to learn how to better "ask Emacs". Emacs provides lots of ways to discover and find things, from the most common or superficial things (help keys, menus) to those deepest in its belly (Lisp, C). That fact isn't obvious to new users, and even old users can benefit from being reminded of it. Learning better how to ask Emacs is always possible, regardless of level of familiarity or years of use. ___ Every top-level, superficially obvious point of entry could help pass the message to a user to help yourself by learning better how to "ask Emacs". Top-level entry points can include toolbar, menu-bar Help menu, splash screen, `C-h t' tutorial,... ___ [ Maybe even every *Help* buffer could have a link (the same one-line link) to a manual entry or to some other presentation of info about asking Emacs (i.e., finding things). Perhaps with an added boost from AI-thingies, such a link could be *Help*-context sensitive. And perhaps (with AI) some actions that users take could (optionally) sometimes be followed by a popup tip about a handy (maybe quicker) way to ask Emacs about something they seem to be looking for or not be aware of. ]