From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: [PATCH] Package Installation in Tutorial Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:38:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <864k7ro07p.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <835ys47pzx.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40165"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Eli Zaretskii , Daniel Fleischer Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 04 18:40:16 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mtZ1D-000ACw-Qo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 18:40:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42028 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtZ1C-0001qX-6F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 12:40:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53000) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtZ01-0000vK-US for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 12:39:01 -0500 Original-Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:26068) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mtYzz-00079e-0I; Sat, 04 Dec 2021 12:39:01 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (m0246632.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1B4EYC1m000598; Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:38:56 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2021-07-09; bh=3Ungbr18IV9b9Ea3qjkzZaRFGMBAGMp6MjOex2XvwDk=; b=QrgCrnJMfe8eWXSbw9zJ7nyLaNCSYWK9cO0vkwAyLRN19/O2C4wIHe10n706OnbXviiv 0HsackpuBo06jF+Vtp2cRko59n874wW7U7VbgY2R6m8jao9Mww6Tv/1rGaKvJcIe45u6 Xhs/RpG9Ksf9yQfaWn4tbdLMq4cgFYh8qpWA9v2+NK7Xit4c6nNO5hcY+BkQ2iesaQ1V wEnUvudPFMJ11MhbOuJ6KGjS024/c7zQlBj4Mq2rr1eaZDA3W38dk9Ma6p1ks02xHXZ0 vYsdCn30jpnX7iEZBHveqFdiz1viSryc98OW6weJhp+IaXvYb8O8le9cNo2hslOVAicU Gg== Original-Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 3cqyxv1gdh-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 04 Dec 2021 17:38:56 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 1B4HVpoA117549; Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:38:55 GMT Original-Received: from nam11-co1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam11lp2175.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.56.175]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3cqxcbacb0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 04 Dec 2021 17:38:55 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=PCueFhGhTH3v9fMmzxOE/5VC6+UMloZspmP01GnEK2V1SsZU3dZ2KEOtnGwugKiudVQmnFeQCKh+4r1RjfoJFkdYY+6P+2tP0dWAkJrHq5PlXoFq8NjKZLJkGbFiZAOFGx9EOPnvEI23WlihtpeEONFlj5igYITwanv4cA91wiznCJGzV3L6HOAs5v2LxQvVqW1TkJanZ+KN8ngW4fLmyUV0B347VfKQ8k9H/AKrlFmhDc4WuSGhSLqcIxdQPGQMMsKXJN+XwJTVc7lpGT8ajrZo/KhviQF8EJdOv6UVW5QTTHzNNnk6iBZthcA0gQdrzWkqypJS61MsJewkdleOPg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=3Ungbr18IV9b9Ea3qjkzZaRFGMBAGMp6MjOex2XvwDk=; b=jcFD2N3qOMrY2NJHNlum8+n6Wu4Md7xRB4ew91Qag6NweLGG99O0tSPSniM98QLGY8KikUo8koIIe/YM+zBc4VMU0J/7h/x3Tg/qYqbyPjSiWHDXNB+njN0pqJygmxSUnD6x45fJOHmobvmZZew0HkWo4XcAKYp8xF0og7ETfh9x7oFa6j3HQYQMzy7a2GUnoWtG8oyK0afeGaIVgdtYRc5fSCeu9xM5qKvV35+oNGp+3egcOtEPNaEJg4XmpF1VzbDTxRN7hpxFgLQvT22WOeSp8YnK3LXFX5ck0sxITWFJluBmDw5KEtqDX71SgD7e4Ko1DAF/1nr/lDZTETkWNw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=3Ungbr18IV9b9Ea3qjkzZaRFGMBAGMp6MjOex2XvwDk=; b=PeGgDS5anJFgJYcDh9XKNYYU0FM/+yDg1t2bo+iywjjdqqpK1s93TE7SQ7zCT7RMLwQ+cNJtmTOEAuPBxcwsDquQQ1elsZxWvaWFcvrVLnbttcmtcHqEtseqa4c1UON6cSlMZkVSZeJZ0/x4n6NsPj8e1XnESLpFFiYJSg6Qw1s= Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by BYAPR10MB2917.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:87::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4734.23; Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:38:53 +0000 Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4588:646c:e330:8bc0]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4588:646c:e330:8bc0%9]) with mapi id 15.20.4734.024; Sat, 4 Dec 2021 17:38:53 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: [PATCH] Package Installation in Tutorial Thread-Index: AQHX6OY1up2pNPGdqkyUwNkf3COiWqwilNWA In-Reply-To: <835ys47pzx.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 26d03c90-e8f5-47d1-da3d-08d9b74cf10c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR10MB2917: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:390; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(76116006)(8936002)(52536014)(83380400001)(66556008)(33656002)(110136005)(86362001)(316002)(64756008)(122000001)(66946007)(38070700005)(8676002)(2906002)(4326008)(66446008)(66476007)(44832011)(508600001)(5660300002)(6506007)(38100700002)(71200400001)(26005)(55016003)(186003)(7696005)(9686003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?us-ascii?Q?EmNgygOzhotSCnz7NhCOjR56w6vDOXcG+FmBsjMto9X8vB8c9W+2a6XSJh3X?= =?us-ascii?Q?UAelBE0fzGO0zBhTICoNqe8CtL4E7j/kifY3xtKmliMNg9iYKwwFlSca8sYc?= =?us-ascii?Q?PPIF3YutGN28JMh4I7gi7Xhaz3P6zTsUo6fOWU37vD4WLqipbY9yNVf6pxhW?= =?us-ascii?Q?Ii6eZQfejovSjFbRJHkGpZiO3eSzCvdRXVfFhbzuBPuwhA3Iduzeu60AKh3q?= =?us-ascii?Q?rlc00C/y150lUcA4fonJKFkO5eB9wp2vQpqCbJJLwhNvebgUMPUaEVj8phKb?= =?us-ascii?Q?qB2cJS5P6S9qTUDdU1jFKlDZxzjwaQou7MXbcbAq+zA/+rUffAea+7pGET+I?= =?us-ascii?Q?ZXxhaEJiY1eHNBtApjE+eCLVu6lPVr+z6M2HFZDMwmJ0HSm863GXcTOnGHT1?= =?us-ascii?Q?f5rqlv+qf5woBtG1cx9aa5rm37NfH86RgL+xDjQpV9L2xKLx0mFfLCsxl6dc?= =?us-ascii?Q?tTfPIZl1lMhMMi/d+uI5DU6GYZr/vtDhiWwssF8Mf8iFl6oAX3utMI4/el8M?= =?us-ascii?Q?vdQsjgdotj3xQewKB6McWq3MOorRoFddAzYjhHsz6rMp/ATwCmuLcdEdJFXq?= =?us-ascii?Q?3sh3lVo2XefWmMBar+zQdX8xAX3Yt1ZDKJpr2/tb/OPbW+EXsEhaCjHral7a?= =?us-ascii?Q?Zb X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 26d03c90-e8f5-47d1-da3d-08d9b74cf10c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Dec 2021 17:38:53.7950 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: eJPNy2CsRi3msWKGxhQp0Z0HVcseq1zMJeiAvaHWOabdyrA9lZN5ILk5xa9//BLONioOpMqzpyKVIcOccMUnBA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR10MB2917 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10188 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2112040113 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 53hO32Kv1TimmKgbs48Nmp8rPwsbnc6D X-Proofpoint-GUID: 53hO32Kv1TimmKgbs48Nmp8rPwsbnc6D Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.220.177.32; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:280931 Archived-At: > > > I'm again asking what _you_ look to, as evidence > > > that installing & deleting packages is something > > > that first-timers really need, as part of our > > > learn-by-doing tutorial. > > > > I feel like that's not fair. In the short time I've been here I was abl= e > > to see features being implemented which were NOT backed up by any > > external data or polls (discussions here are not included). Moreover, > > some updates were motivated by individual bug reports which is a sample > > of one. >=20 > Drew doesn't speak for the Emacs project, so don't be surprised when > his views contradict the project's practices and decision-making > process. He (consistently) opposes those as well. Here we go again, with another of Eli's knee-jerk ad hominem attacks. Asking for reasons for making a proposed change is not a contradiction of the Emacs project's practices or decision-making process. And no, Drew does not oppose those, consistently or otherwise. Progress is not incompatible with disagreeing about a given decision or proposal. And discussing reasons & counter-reasons that back up arguments and proposals, is no threat to progress. Quite the opposite. Appeal to authority as an argument is weak, even if sometimes legitimate. When it's the only reason given, that's sad.