From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Concern about new binding. Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:28:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87zh0mmr54.fsf@gmail.com> <87y2g5smya.fsf@gmail.com> <4FF55FBF-573D-4A70-B3FC-682CA25B7ECB@gnu.org> <83lfc53whk.fsf@gnu.org> <20210203180142.seu6o3i6u7jhkyrh@Ergus> <83eehx3to5.fsf@gnu.org> <20210203221628.xgvvxjvh56gyswba@Ergus> <20210204070033.pm4ido4hq7a6twif@Ergus> <83sg6brhyg.fsf@gnu.org> <5588fb25805d486be704@heytings.org> <878s82esdi.fsf@fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28561"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Joost Kremers , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 05 19:58:41 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l86JU-0007KB-1m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 19:58:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44696 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l86JT-0007Ug-05 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 13:58:39 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35836) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l85qQ-0004hx-5Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 13:28:38 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:51194) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l85qO-0007HA-Bn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 13:28:37 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 115IJsQR154920; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:28:30 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=O4tLO1yP/hod8j+JXbhCw7JGiZAjnN/ruqkCc6cJulw=; b=jw9f6WdbEMJ+CwLJlEWsuoEkPC7UJ7D+nbcFPZ7t58gBphf+zTNHDJxWJ+Q0zdJbwI/l qBvJ6/1Bc8TpPF9X2t2u1sLuytGuf6gqXAK/7ynI9+fHIzBbRGEnKjS4z9pln+55aA8E OjT+L2Xau9z6JwE+NSpYSWle5y6J9PykJcSRqJZqYt1sKtXAKEJgcNoVHgTo/2CMFRV9 apPuIqj8e9qxEfYjeTVhKJN3quuLxcl2eYlHADkzHXFl6kiMdJUnXV3FGhhxSAVGo8EK WrcKL4LLWkkjkc+K7vYEiBLWzgBWCSgxMfwMSyEfhyOaXx9gybcD33TOO6ev0Pk0fOAq nQ== Original-Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36cydmapcm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 05 Feb 2021 18:28:30 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 115IF9kE169882; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:28:30 GMT Original-Received: from nam10-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam10lp2108.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.55.108]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36dhc4jacq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 05 Feb 2021 18:28:30 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=U2izK1sqbW4XHPxiW2fxghnnQQQL7dayAJR8+XVZukEjo0YO0JFjX6fa70bxbek4h8NDyYMx97iWTHsk++xm+/wtLnpDvMTCVuLAh3ZM2uiuO6McXUErjntevH2/I4jrIbTYl2i+g0T4NnhJXCVThCgO8JLIV1MlYnB5Yyj2cs+KJxgxI00JBRd+ZN5tNgsj+cFSnnjqw3deWHVgDk87DDOAreH2tFzDALIkFPDmzCVZxqEfajdchLKNYXUYhqWUWYipiwK3X2u8tMenOpnMezJm9AaljPZTwvehMSN982KRO9xkYdSf9P1akue/GSs8j9vJ66zNckBhTbpbhCM24Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=O4tLO1yP/hod8j+JXbhCw7JGiZAjnN/ruqkCc6cJulw=; b=UG3ryxW1gWSBGg/pBt0cwbUYXMUUqi+AzmdCOFyDoantXjoGtuH7FhAxpafrYVTVvtqzNBql6/ZQVKn4k2+UUZ/ciDFyGofrrqT6yyauoS7BSa0RisbHoJxgGWrPke0AXt/OEgD0oStCREqkAWzbNiYXcEwRjW0ka+j8y+c6wKx6/O6m7+XyeDdJxc4+R7h1EhRLkD/mSEg4RdrycVstJYvkMFaYrGn2jOl9jau8StGYoP8+GjTy5ePDGJ30Iq5KyfBjAB0xwmYxAnZ20dZJTXkX3IX6aVB6okcinGiZYINLXYFr498B7XxE1zyrWvK2yket29zWXIoO3WubnYZYAw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=O4tLO1yP/hod8j+JXbhCw7JGiZAjnN/ruqkCc6cJulw=; b=PQn5APHYXSc7f9ZXccAomGG7/FrK+YRK3LCRDVvxnCukfs+0pK7PTqhidgjD1GhKsnsbzCX1YAnNuFI+4sm+WizmRFYk4zFKQE/g/ARk784nE9eOlMptmk4gKtxTfOrF9Xohp3cj2g0S0bsMaTY0myRku/MdEacn2N73fmpyOd8= Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11b::15) by SN6PR10MB2432.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:805:46::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3825.17; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:28:28 +0000 Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc4d:9cd0:2010:daa2]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc4d:9cd0:2010:daa2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3825.024; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:28:28 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Concern about new binding. Thread-Index: AQHW++yxOq8vb8Swe02s3oly9UpLww== In-Reply-To: <878s82esdi.fsf@fastmail.fm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: fastmail.fm; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;fastmail.fm; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 05a2462d-de27-428b-bc8b-08d8ca03d552 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2432: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(376002)(396003)(346002)(366004)(39860400002)(136003)(66556008)(66476007)(66446008)(64756008)(76116006)(66946007)(8936002)(55016002)(478600001)(2906002)(86362001)(5660300002)(9686003)(83380400001)(7696005)(8676002)(71200400001)(33656002)(6506007)(52536014)(44832011)(26005)(316002)(186003)(110136005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?us-ascii?Q?80Dvk22Zr+VUe5OkDGDqzAKdl7QfHWscIqLCgRY3jjhu7Gd78WcJnfN1RrZZ?= =?us-ascii?Q?OYbPbTMr7sJQv0e0MRIWEE7eTBU/NtsmLjZ67Oji8Y/Lnlu5XL8VMg53a7TV?= =?us-ascii?Q?CNaLwW+JWvKuWcP2qJf/BObObFxFI8S/HUJrIav2N5TlgfCgaSMz3aIKbo5Q?= =?us-ascii?Q?T+YBX1VM0iPKppTXYapVV4OJhBKABxAsI9TfDDKZ1ilJVyZQg5EyWQfzz2El?= =?us-ascii?Q?tzS3l5Xy2hhxhoANfEaZRMZiuwqbf4MUrNRpTsqpFIwOb1skH7AIPdPi99HC?= =?us-ascii?Q?2GiGDK+wRg2/756mHUzhZ60fmsethb2eGQjnKiuu54KhZemjt5M+jsL0JfOq?= =?us-ascii?Q?dml9dhnMm0WC9uv0+vU73dO9MjjflT1QsSdiqv3z66B4ckjIO+fXiiXaafSJ?= =?us-ascii?Q?Ab6MfskXSXbb8SEpuGY/sMRrsKsctoplqOYEum/908NUFkdrcIVLbswPQ+BO?= =?us-ascii?Q?I4u2joJyPU+PiJHF4bxwnuGDJfnxi5AiCTgh9X+5eO/SgWULrYdj1cblOAdG?= =?us-ascii?Q?jdp+JpXfUyyDBKTOU8+11AZgOwZF8qWaNNzod0CfoxQMNCo4ppq3mlzYJqHA?= =?us-ascii?Q?+1+sbSqlVsipTtjDH5FYlbkCDFcwPuRsLjr1JB8tJxFMJJI5GIxqmTurgoRX?= =?us-ascii?Q?HYac x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 05a2462d-de27-428b-bc8b-08d8ca03d552 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Feb 2021 18:28:28.4452 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 1nBe/KuHUz9xZC9QuWY8/7QAZHcayY5zS/3JAWHdzouM8LAlkwkh2m15l8td5fB+fR8YB7BE7aeWEp1DyGBjbQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2432 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9885 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102050114 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9885 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102050114 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:263999 Archived-At: > Perhaps a better way to update the documented key > binding conventions is to add the rule that packages > should generally not create global key bindings. As I mentioned earlier, my position on that is that (1) we can document that it's generally a good idea for 3rd-party code to only suggest such bindings, and not actually create them, but (2) there's no convention that 3rd-party code should not or must not create such bindings. What will happen, if we try a more draconian convention, is that 3rd-party code will add minor modes which wouldn't otherwise have existed (i.e., created just to provide bindings). And then we have the same potential problem, but just playing out as competition between minor modes that are active at the same time. > Reserving keys for external packages won't solve > the fundamental problem here: two external > packages may still decide to use the same key > bindings, causing similar conflicts for users > that install both. I agree. Except that I don't consider that to be the fundamental problem here. And I don't even think it is much of a potential problem, though I recognize that it exists. The fundamental problem here, IMO, is Emacs itself grabbing more and more new default keys, restricting the space of keys available for 3rd-party libraries. Competition for keys among 3rd parties is much less of a problem, I think. When Emacs grabs a key by default, no package wants to bind that key - it's effectively lost to 3rd-party code.