From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Concern about new binding. Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:12:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87zh0mmr54.fsf@gmail.com> <87y2g5smya.fsf@gmail.com> <4FF55FBF-573D-4A70-B3FC-682CA25B7ECB@gnu.org> <83lfc53whk.fsf@gnu.org> <20210203180142.seu6o3i6u7jhkyrh@Ergus> <83eehx3to5.fsf@gnu.org> <20210203221628.xgvvxjvh56gyswba@Ergus> <20210204070033.pm4ido4hq7a6twif@Ergus> <83sg6brhyg.fsf@gnu.org> <83v9b7orny.fsf@gnu.org> <83wnvjncj5.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18583"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Eli Zaretskii , "rms@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 07 21:14:11 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l8qRe-0004i0-Fv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2021 21:14:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41636 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l8qRd-00084Q-Iv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2021 15:14:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45558) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l8qQW-0007OC-KY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Feb 2021 15:13:00 -0500 Original-Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:54026) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l8qQS-0002MZ-2r; Sun, 07 Feb 2021 15:13:00 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 117K4vOK121541; Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:12:53 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=pb3emxbrRzUF/LOe0bHB/0TY98WEa+mKRX9tNOtDnJU=; b=oAqfEXMbeLJ7pZf59Wy4tZ/1KXVgzkYhwHXQi7NXC6Pi3FRzetIn180JhOgbjp1Au2qk c4vTN8yoU9NSspXKOX4AIZ9vtWXSsHB99gOrqvTgmq68wuBTZXbf23aW5G4y6ECsBLjs yJARRgF86lTsbTWIyy05EYdFx6AKtodDmPHNcJ13iO+hW5I+EYiMdBlEBYZtPcfXgUkL ZjNF7qA/SrsMBLxUkh5bScHEJwwrYKqXuyphSoy+Lp/PO5lZPZxiMLXn2UQDgOlBpkX4 pK/1p7iNvgUfUxC/sf9M30dI2mTLTvOQZw2wo9hrd8UvSMx97sWJedHfNZokC3OVNsR8 fQ== Original-Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36hjhqj96e-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 07 Feb 2021 20:12:53 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 117K6VJZ139869; Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:12:53 GMT Original-Received: from nam11-co1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam11lp2170.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.56.170]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36j4vp38x8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 07 Feb 2021 20:12:53 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=NHClBCcFlClSxwbthky3SApIHHYM2eHopCLPWt1h6lkEeszy6+utJHfK09Z18GkWP/nk7iio4pwcV1TTpEwWzjvxZR//bNuzJSCvtaYk2wZOMuGmGZxR3BZbOGBjLKmPlviEF4zjOuQhXB2MWKt4NB0vuskzwqkwjZVr81XwB2tHiGDtKhaWLzMWxvGYxv9bQFeOyWw5tI9vy+Z424FjvMncTeEllWhalJHuInxDbetjFuiAuvkVtMe3E3zWEr0/WVsc9wcyisX9XcJDvI+hgpXEMazCgxW+gHngTLElRGarJvOgkIhnQ7eutNh0PMn3trAnfWw26JfBl4T0G7BRfQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=pb3emxbrRzUF/LOe0bHB/0TY98WEa+mKRX9tNOtDnJU=; b=AAz6YtBqaqJvRQBNHTNnptdkmWy/+XPI/52Oyo/JcSGwVoXWNuje6JNdmPoGuqRBoUGx0jKWZrqYaYLPfK/1xT+INhzslVsCevuJRhmYwwoUyCnYd/d41wXEIIy57dU3zBDLG9joHw+ODKOuT9c9PytzOMhPVEYvew3kxozrftXnhDa/UjevwgY3k3vbGMBzNDo5Xf7RvJYW7UKTIBtdfdWn30nliv2spiKvTl/fhxqOTjaMg6npG+5Coy0nbbxfOTdi8H6JQcfizfxKfCOxJsSr7q8yYlO/mUv+NdRXTPP6SPrIn0FG3XHKHxkwJWvhKYXXGOM65rWUJVr/zn0XQw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=pb3emxbrRzUF/LOe0bHB/0TY98WEa+mKRX9tNOtDnJU=; b=J+RgCAZepSz21WjS1OG933ilfyBef4ABmyHw+oO7Viac6q93kmUJzGNEJ3tDQjFllOqTB87Etyw3G1OFX+SkZsks+R04wPOTz3KwtUjeuxFSzjWozvyEM8GUDhGqexHFG++vqWQ345c6sXvwIsMbKcuIXpev+BskuTG1KSplaAw= Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11b::15) by SN6PR10MB2734.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:805:41::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3825.30; Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:12:51 +0000 Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc4d:9cd0:2010:daa2]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc4d:9cd0:2010:daa2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3825.030; Sun, 7 Feb 2021 20:12:51 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Concern about new binding. Thread-Index: AQHW/WLA/ZB6K55OrEataI3GO4O7NapNCACg In-Reply-To: <83wnvjncj5.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4d958283-71e4-462b-a9af-08d8cba4bf12 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2734: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(346002)(366004)(39860400002)(136003)(396003)(376002)(8676002)(478600001)(44832011)(8936002)(7696005)(9686003)(71200400001)(316002)(110136005)(86362001)(186003)(26005)(6506007)(55016002)(2906002)(83380400001)(4326008)(76116006)(64756008)(66556008)(66446008)(66476007)(33656002)(52536014)(5660300002)(66946007)(450100002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?us-ascii?Q?McYTy3ZXwt+3OwS3Xo7WPRbJJp1hOjFqygAncKeJvxzPjiHxL+D6rvx2edRd?= =?us-ascii?Q?PVUhV33NQrCAST8LXh0/7H/Me64X0ng+Q+YW1+zKF57OHncLsq4d6UK7cEu2?= =?us-ascii?Q?VWq4TfftTXXGidFHmjU9kuH2pur0hSjxiJFjuQmJupxKtwXqQyYPZDL9UCgA?= =?us-ascii?Q?WqW76RodnPyclt1SIg6YVcJXR3wS2aXhAtzQi15b8CrMps875d61sTMblex8?= =?us-ascii?Q?z5IkqL9g2rCkSewjSo1QrcInNZ/+2Kxatvn9jhMeuah5rMltaQ7hFsM12Kch?= =?us-ascii?Q?X7aA4T1iEJ2kRlei0pD9wtDTwB/Rgk368uhwdW7SHEveacaYx1WJp0VbXBvY?= =?us-ascii?Q?gOYi2sppDv1dVqvoSA9L8LYB85XH2R3SBJkZTAMe/4+rMVMdzx5Im42DbH7n?= =?us-ascii?Q?AOf5ZyXl/OEwdYN3s3MQz7jEXBEpValc7y63hU3rcAzrWr3cokYqbPVPTJiw?= =?us-ascii?Q?+bdgybbAtdtoG6WznwdyY4SZrvO8ASEGVZe9o2e12r+NmrpdgvPy+ZPAa1YV?= =?us-ascii?Q?n/YxvHoG2v0Qw5qC9uGJOD7HtdRGs9eBv4aZTrzitN+3tv4mQABkfhSJOXXq?= =?us-ascii?Q?H4E6ICYMDmNJ53cwuZZiZZQkUwi+dysz+029k+IXWrA8ZUKoKzKhr1cKIZ5H?= =?us-ascii?Q?Kjtd x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4d958283-71e4-462b-a9af-08d8cba4bf12 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Feb 2021 20:12:51.2666 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: moMEDgcrh/8yDmygXxW2nuXLC9Av6Kl9MSFAvzKrxvwT97a5QD1TcjlSk1p99mWZEzBX+zEsctJFs0ftWhurGw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2734 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9888 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=530 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102070145 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9888 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=822 clxscore=1015 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102070145 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=156.151.31.86; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2130.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:264135 Archived-At: > > You're right, but I think we are having a miscommunication. > > I'm not saying we should poll the users about this. > > That wasn't the intention at all. > > > > Here's the discussion that led up to it: > > > > > I'd prefer to find a binding to which people could > > > agree, because that would leave fewer people unhappy. > > > > How do we know that? Users haven't been polled, > > have they? Emacs users and Emacs have survived > > for 35+ years without a global binding for > > `revert-buffer'. Why assume that most users now > > would be happier if it had a global binding? > > > > So I added > > > > More than that. Over that time, how often have people > > asked for such a global binding? > > > > My point was that we should not assume there is a lot of > > demand for this change. >=20 > You agreed with Drew who said a poll was needed > (although now he denies that). I already corrected you once on this. I shouldn't have to do so again. I never, ever, said that a poll is/was needed. Here, in this thread, or in any other thread. It's not that "now he [I] denies that". It's that I never said that. Please cite something to the contrary, instead of continuing to misrepresent what I've said. I do agree with Richard's general sentiment that asking users could sometimes provide some helpful info. And we both made the point that "we should not _assume_ there is a lot of demand for this change". That was the message. I posed it as a question: what demand has been expressed for this change? Has it ever been requested? (No answer, so far.) But I've never, ever, said or thought that a poll is, EVER, needed. And I have no illusions about the difficulty of good polling or the limitations of polling. I'd never promote polling as the sole, or even as necessarily a good, or even an adequate, way of determining what users want. It can be one way to obtain some kinds of info - nothing more. (And I explicitly criticized a recent outside poll of Emacs users wrt various criteria.)=20 Nor do I think that what users want, even when we can determine that reasonably, is or should be the sole, or even the best, reason for a design decision. _Far from it._ What did I really say here about polling? I quoted it once, after your first attempt to misrepresent it. (It's quoted again, above.) Yet you persist in doing that. In response to a statement about a decision that's expected to leave "fewer people unhappy", I asked _how that was known_ or thought to be true. That's all. I asked whether users were polled in that context, as a (conceivable) justification for that claim. I have no idea what real justification, if any, might lie behind the claim. I asked whether some poll might be part of it. I didn't demand anything, including polling. You claimed I argued that "we cannot know that, because there was no poll". And you said my question was really a "demand", and that I insisted a poll be taken "before [your] opinion would count" -- and even that Richard seconded that insistence. None of that is accurate. Please stop misrepresenting what I've said. You've claimed that I've made derogatory statements, and more. I have not. I even volunteered clearly and forthrightly (and it's not the first time) that I'm very grateful for your work as maintainer, and in particular I appreciate your continuing to act conservatively wrt proposals for change, and your valuing what already exists or has long existed. I strongly value that in an Emacs maintainer. (I've also said multiple times that I especially value the importance and care you place on Emacs doc. No one, with the exception of Richard, has shown such appreciation of the importance of doc.) You replied to my statement of appreciation with a nasty grumble to the effect that it means nothing, that what I wrote is insincere, and that "actual words and deeds speak to the contrary." I can only ask that you and others take me at my word, and invite proof to the contrary. It's disingenuous and unfair to do otherwise. I don't say nice things to flatter you. I say what I mean. Please stop being so defensive, and keep the discussion about ideas. Please do not try to present a difference of opinion - a technical argument - as an attack on yourself or other maintainers. It's not. It's not about you. And it's not about me. It's about Emacs.