From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:22:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <838s7hxqkr.fsf@gnu.org> <1c2c69f9-f42e-45e2-ab0e-8506aa859f85@yandex.ru> <8335ven7tu.fsf@gnu.org> <6654ddbe-0f1b-f36e-26f2-f4ee178b12ac@yandex.ru> <677a04021bc7fbe7bcef@heytings.org> <83mttmldk6.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf96ldd1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3405"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" , "stefan@marxist.se" , "dgutov@yandex.ru" To: Eli Zaretskii , "gregory@heytings.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 25 18:25:24 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lahZU-0000mu-HZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 18:25:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54846 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lahZT-000053-L7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:25:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55212) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lahYB-00083R-2m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:24:04 -0400 Original-Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:58382) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lahY1-0004hm-PQ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:23:59 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 13PGKIRj148956; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:22:45 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=NIkthiqCfC4x2oJu//+fjq2uUAgZ+29N4m1ppUKts4s=; b=R6HuRtJPlPnhKZLyHNe6wED8uFp9WZvJHvdjwvTDPWhbolmghq+z7toPjw8jHllKJ4/H sepKYOzzYqtcwidiW8ulKYKmY0rV6Ypw9ChdTBzaGngLmQMGF8BsfUBL6JtGc4fFtef/ aLSLLqjca57OG7kfmHoypJ5miO9nX8Mc07e9UlscrMsVcXazFtP80NDOsTuV9wXDKCD1 8Jx7fxrudgETVZWgtKuy1cl2yDYIcPpRv3xMcf13bTZulqo43Qkf44+5Kt6Sx2Caa3iI tUMpfzHTYH5+/0wsSrlBZmK72WXNXRzxvbL1SY5Vv8KqV+FVM827GtAHtfuwD1w3t70T lQ== Original-Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 385aepr2q5-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:22:44 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 13PGGGhZ099281; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:22:44 GMT Original-Received: from nam11-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam11lp2172.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.58.172]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 384w3qj4yb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:22:43 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=KBd98xOv2gxSI1gVyt/liEb2IThxbzdDXAoYMBort4UMJvWPd6iu+SqI/8ruu5gfJHigXscEvEgzH9p1ZJRkkghQkAS8RrTwzIgrnPhzFkffbFdCLppVzTop2uIckWpxMnviM9dVo6KqPx2QriNO5rUnoVjooui5bM9ezL8vrZNNNwNGBuYSS8lr3BM7yjp6b9OEl6nXjrBn9qp19+Nho/2RSjoqWQBG5i7Q5WnsrzTcT2sAxOuwqivAj0joNnBPiVeKKN398xxJ3u7TVHX3T/xu68TgvkzQGJGVjCdHiIBjGo87sDlwnnTM/ZiLegWMlb5js9VGCDzoVYbdPuo7zw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=NIkthiqCfC4x2oJu//+fjq2uUAgZ+29N4m1ppUKts4s=; b=nUEB3YO8O5mclmHiq4CR351NPIw6NbCQcAl/RziCVEpMYK6HRV3ca2lHjkBBjh/KlDF9SLfHkLB/kT7GJRJo//7N3+Y98f7qibkBOt6TZoo8pEK/9k04kCUym9j76tgv+R61fS4GBgrXrRxgOQ8s0b/Fx2Mr+gQs9oQuLcufVj34vI5WNq5Z3W5yW4krtKkzn+x9XFYGbVAC7lQMNOPESR7pF2gWRjHB4+37dgC/hFCK9r3kDpu0w8H2IX3h6kwC2Pp/4LGPB90SYwqtsO4yZuj+k3wXNCyuS1LsUv3e5LreLdcmyy3K3LuncPDqpKStfHTygU13klwsVYfthCBsZA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=NIkthiqCfC4x2oJu//+fjq2uUAgZ+29N4m1ppUKts4s=; b=a43MOJG1CdEd9kSTiakl+UHsjrS9LjyDq5be/DTBaKcpgc7Q3WLlkOXKwi/QvUk/m+2Ze5yl1tQiJemtI5BJgQmS9Xxi5SOqF8wWBnk00FLByaceMNChAnX1C5jSxsbwDvNvptDJQeLJPpXenQQp7lC4JmLZ1dhHoRYXIpQ0gR8= Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11b::15) by SA2PR10MB4572.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:f9::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4065.24; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:22:41 +0000 Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2109:9725:fd4a:6494]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2109:9725:fd4a:6494%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4065.021; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:22:41 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Thread-Index: AQHXOe823cJhF2zAD0qWVi0JT5BmOA== In-Reply-To: <83lf96ldd1.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d7138171-4d6c-49b9-db37-08d9080659c0 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SA2PR10MB4572: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:5516; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(346002)(376002)(396003)(136003)(366004)(39860400002)(9686003)(5660300002)(83380400001)(33656002)(86362001)(66446008)(186003)(76116006)(66946007)(66556008)(122000001)(66476007)(64756008)(52536014)(44832011)(4326008)(6506007)(8936002)(71200400001)(4744005)(478600001)(2906002)(7696005)(55016002)(110136005)(26005)(8676002)(316002)(38100700002)(54906003)(81973001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?us-ascii?Q?MBYhTqg/H3XQwfA2+PxH+4KllBRKrCApWAAw8vsfJc2f2jbvb9+S5YaWwk4B?= =?us-ascii?Q?u4buR5nA69qa/Ef2SAV++1x5WUI1m3ZncNm/5K0Buz7WdN9gMLx6W7f9elW1?= =?us-ascii?Q?oMJgsMSfRvfRp/kCSzEFcO3UQsAE1rHZncvXwQmmtavyQMjzY28zyuHNWel9?= =?us-ascii?Q?cozhYWpw+ZXa9ZE8TddjkGqDMtP5v3eD8hytyn5TcmEOMzIet8kCTKb26B9B?= =?us-ascii?Q?MccvCRgudoOmjlO2Bt7maCP4632Ll/yGJ4m+FhuDuCVyGTYLVgjPuwE/X0vB?= =?us-ascii?Q?kt/AZN8t0C97fS1YVQ677Nxr2LQSINjCJ1bziPrdcCfAwVULoHWoy7DPcqJn?= =?us-ascii?Q?B2T2XZSrkwUQ4/99qlcIWSWzdjiI/WNTR0VMwqhXFEqIcEwFazRotOYhdfR/?= =?us-ascii?Q?BBDS6QAwMo5nL/ZMyIL0UOhj6T4jW68u+u8JHps7UmJY0dnwwh/53NYRe1bE?= =?us-ascii?Q?2KLZLdCzytM78cYt4T/chgBAIVh0JHDjh10QUQ37gA9zt3y7K8mmvSM3mr5X?= =?us-ascii?Q?E0oAfAr7RSoGJramMUeHdMgXq97xtFNfSpOBYYW85G/DvbRQcmohcUFoIDsz?= =?us-ascii?Q?PMBVbX/4JJd2IC927SakqCiBcq7GJe7QtSuXdfhkYi2KI/p7Yo7JfufuI4v/?= =?us-ascii?Q?MlHg x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d7138171-4d6c-49b9-db37-08d9080659c0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Apr 2021 16:22:41.7894 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FpMhMm3ehtt6Z7epHtZC1g7MDauOm7MXkaXS59dMb9KHcDRsdncJgNrLU1G/3bPcv3VMV4L6DZ45WjZ+QLODkA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR10MB4572 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9965 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=867 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250121 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: tFaIIVC-Y-HITgu6Wn7t8SzuhaZSI5to X-Proofpoint-GUID: tFaIIVC-Y-HITgu6Wn7t8SzuhaZSI5to X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9965 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104250121 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=156.151.31.85; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268391 Archived-At: > Seems like a regression in Emacs 24.1: in Emacs 23.4 =20 > scrolls backward, like DEL. FWIW, I don't see that on MS Windows with `emacs -Q'. I don't see it with Emacs 20 through 23 (or later). If you're talking about modes like Info or Help then when I hit the key labeled "Delete", which Emacs tells me is the key I get an error saying that the buffer is read-only. And if I use `C-h k' with that key Emacs tells me: "C-d (translated from ) runs the command delete-char". (Emacs 20 doesn't include the parenthetical phrase.) Likely I've misunderstood what you're saying.