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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help'
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 23:05:10 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB447453DE6EFF82F321A2F1F7F36D9@SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnW+W81kgf6wKtvR=zLmAHOKO+bpVyU_N_qX=3-UitcEg@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5365 bytes --]

> https://i.imgur.com/Cv67yUN.png

FWIW -

I'm in favor of having top-level summary help for a
feature - help that's organized into groups such as
what you've now proposed for `help-for-help' (aka
`C-h C-h').

I've long done that for some of my libraries, using
such organized Help as mode help (`C-h m').

And I've used such organization for `C-h C-h' at
least since 1999, with minor updates - see attached
screenshot.

I've also added links on key descriptions.  I think
they help a lot.  I'm not in favor of just coloring
keys as you've proposed, as I've said before - it's
better to link them to their full help, IMO.

Yes, one can do what the `C-h C-h' instructions say:
"type a help option...".

But you can also click key-description links to get
full help on a key.  IOW, the display is part of a
dialog, yes, but you can also use it like an ordinary
*Help* buffer.

Just what organization should be used is a separate
question.  What I wanted to say is: 

1. I agree that grouping helps.
2. I've long done that for `C-h C-h'.
3. I propose help links on keys (not just action-less
   colored text).

Here's a plain text version of what the screenshot shows:
_____

This is the Emacs ‘help-command’, accessible via ‘C-h’.
Type a help option (below) now, for help on a particular topic.
Use ‘SPC’ or ‘DEL’ to scroll this text.  Type ‘q’ to exit Help.
(A "command" is any function that you can execute via ‘M-x’.)

LEARNING EMACS
--------------
t:   Start a tutorial for learning Emacs.
C-f: Explain frequently asked Emacs questions.

COMMONLY USED
-------------
RET: Help about a key sequence or something you click with the mouse.
a:   Show commands that match a regular expression (regexp).
b:   Show current key bindings: keyboard, menu bar, and mouse.
c:   Show the doc for an Emacs command.
f:   Show the doc for an Emacs function.
F:   Open the Emacs manual for an Emacs command.
i:   Enter ‘Info’, to browse manuals, including Emacs and Emacs Lisp.
k:   Describes the command bound to keyboard/menu/mouse sequence.
K:   Open the Emacs manual for a keyboard/menu/mouse sequence.
m:   Describe the current major and minor modes.
o:   Show an Emacs user option’s value and documentation.
v:   Show an Emacs variable’s value and documentation.

MORE ADVANCED HELP
------------------
d:   Show Emacs functions and variables whose doc matches a regexp.
l:   Show what you just typed (last 100 keystrokes & mouse actions).
n:   Describe what’s new in this Emacs release.
p:   Find Emacs-Lisp libraries that match a topic.
s:   Describe the current syntax table.
S:   Find a symbol in the manual for the current buffer’s language.
u:   Find a topic in the Unix manual.
w:   Identify a keyboard/menu/mouse sequence that invokes a command.
C-a: Show Emacs functions and variables that match a regexp.
C-c: Identify the command bound to a keyboard/menu/mouse sequence.
C-l: Show the path name to an Emacs library.
C-o: Show value and doc for an Emacs user option of a given type.
M-o: Pop to Help buffer or back to the buffer that sent you to Help.
C-M-a: Show the tags matched by a given string.
g:   Show information about the GNU project.
C-w: Show information about the absence of a warranty.
M-c: Show the GNU Emacs General Public License.
M-x describe-distribution: Show Emacs ordering information.

INTERNATIONAL
-------------
C:   Describe a coding system.
h    Display the HELLO file, which illustrates scripts and languages.
I:   Describe an input method.
L:   Describe a language environment.
_____


> (Type SPC or DEL to scroll, or q to exit.)
> 
> Getting Help
> 
>    m	Help for current minor and major modes and their commands
>    b	Show all key bindings
>    k	Show help for key
>    c	Show help for key briefly
>    w	Show which key runs a given command
> 
>    a	Search for commands (see also M-x apropos)
>    d	Search documentation of functions, variables, and other items
>    f	Show help for function
>    o	Show help for function or variable
>    v	Show help for variable
> 
> Info Manuals
> 
>    r	Show Emacs manual
>    F	Show Emacs manual section for command
>    K	Show Emacs manual section for command bound to key
>    i	Show all included manuals
>    R	Show given manual
>    S	Find symbol in Info manual for current programming language
> 
> Misc Help
> 
>    p	Search for packages matching topic
>    P	Describe Emacs Lisp package
>    e	Show recent messages
>    g	Show information about the GNU project
>    l	Show last 300 input keystrokes (lossage)
>    s	Show current syntax table
>    .	Show local help at point
>    t	Start the Emacs tutorial
> 
> Help Files
> 
>    C-a	About Emacs
>    C-c	Emacs copying permission (GNU General Public License)
>    C-d	Debugging GNU Emacs
>    C-e	External packages
>    C-f	Emacs FAQ
>    C-m	Order printed Emacs manuals
>    C-n	News of recent Emacs changes
>    C-o	Emacs ordering and distribution information
>    C-p	Known Emacs problems
>    C-t	Emacs TODO
>    C-w	Information on absence of warranty for GNU Emacs
> 
> Language Help
> 
>    C	Describe coding system
>    I	Describe input method
>    L	Describe language environment
>    h	Display the HELLO file illustrating various scripts

[-- Attachment #2: throw-help-for-help.png --]
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  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-03-14 23:05 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 188+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-02-21 12:06 Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 16:46 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 17:31   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 18:17     ` Drew Adams
2021-02-21 17:42 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-21 18:18   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 19:49   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24  1:40   ` Consistent face for keys in *Help* and `substitute-command-keys' Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24  2:24     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-24  4:44       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 22:01         ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25  1:25           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25  6:43             ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 15:06               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 16:22               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 14:00     ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-02-24 16:35       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 19:09         ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-02-25  2:11           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 14:29     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-24 16:46     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25  2:26       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 14:28         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 16:45           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 18:25             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 18:48               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 19:11                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 19:47                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 20:32                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-04  6:24                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-04 14:00                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 16:18                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 17:07                             ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-05 17:58                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 16:44                                 ` Drew Adams
2021-03-06 17:04                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 17:39                                     ` Drew Adams
2021-03-05 18:58                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 19:28                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 20:15                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 20:39                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 20:52                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 21:43                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06  7:33                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-06 16:25                                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 17:32                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 18:28                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-07  3:03                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-07  6:45                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-07  7:26                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-07  7:42                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-08  9:17                                               ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-08 11:10                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-08 17:43                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10  1:38                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-10 17:16                                                       ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 19:35                                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-10 19:50                                                           ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 19:59                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-11  0:46                                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11  3:09                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-11  6:25                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-11 13:25                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-11 13:59                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 14:11                                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11  6:05                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 14:27                                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-13 15:16                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 15:59                                                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11  0:45                                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-15  9:19                                                               ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-16  2:37                                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-16 23:20                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-08 15:39                                                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-08 16:40                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-08 17:43                                                     ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-09  7:38                                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-09  9:05                                                         ` Juri Linkov
2021-02-25 19:14                 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 19:44             ` martin rudalics
2021-02-24 16:51     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25  1:56       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 14:24         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 17:45 ` Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 18:20   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 18:48   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 19:19     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 20:04       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 20:16         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 23:27           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-22 16:12             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 16:26     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-14  2:37       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-14 23:05       ` Drew Adams [this message]
2021-03-14 23:53         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-15  1:54           ` Drew Adams
2021-04-07 15:18       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 16:10         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-07 22:54           ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08  7:15             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 12:57               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 13:35           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 13:50             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 15:27               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 15:34                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 17:16                   ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 22:52                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-09  6:23                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 14:08             ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 14:50               ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-08 15:02                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 15:15                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 15:45                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 15:51                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 17:55             ` Howard Melman
2021-04-09 15:42               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 18:48             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 23:23               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 23:35                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 23:41                   ` Howard Melman
2021-04-07 16:42         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 18:33         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 19:50           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 22:56           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 23:26             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 12:42               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 19:55         ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-24 13:21         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-24 13:27           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-24 16:44           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-24 23:48             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25  7:26               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25  9:30                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 10:25                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 11:49                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 12:14                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 16:26                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-25 10:20                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 10:38                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 10:46                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 11:23                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 15:18                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:28                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 17:39                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-30 20:02                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 20:36                               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-30 22:09                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-05-02 10:23                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-05-02 18:57                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 17:34                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 12:47                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:05                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:09                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 16:22                         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-25 16:30                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:16                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:24                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:32                           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:44                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:58                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 11:12               ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 15:47               ` DEL vs Backspace (was: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help') Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 16:49                 ` DEL vs Backspace Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-25 17:25                   ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 17:50                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-26  0:45                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-26 11:45                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-26 11:48                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-26  4:41                   ` Richard Stallman
2021-04-27 20:56               ` Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Stefan Kangas
2021-04-27 23:15                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-24 17:18           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-24 20:32             ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-25 10:00             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 17:56       ` Howard Melman
2021-04-07 18:21         ` John Yates
2021-04-07 22:56           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 22:41         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 23:15           ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 12:57             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 19:27 ` Howard Melman
2021-02-22 15:25   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-22 10:01 ` Yuri Khan
2021-02-22 15:25   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:11     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:34       ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 18:43         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 14:06   ` Dmitry Gutov

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