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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:265032 Archived-At: > > I'm not the one claiming that this new (proposed? > > already added?) feature is needed, and that most > > commands are mode-specific. My guess is that it's > > not needed and most commands are not mode-specific. > > > > You're the one proposing a change. What's the > > evidence for the need for it? >=20 > How do you expect to *prove* to you that I will > benefit from the change? How does one usually convince Emacs Dev to make some change? Reasoned argument, examples, use cases...? In the case of a claim that most commands are mode-specific, maybe actually show that somehow? It's standard Emacs Dev practice, I believe, for those proposing a change give supporting reasons. Change requires more support than status quo. That's my impression, at least. It's also my preference. If changes were typically made willy nilly, with no discussion or reasons presented, and if the burden of convincing were on those NOT promoting some change, we'd have more churn and more dissatisfaction all 'round. Don't you agree? > Is there some sort of accepted dialectics for that purpose? Respectful discourse? > I explained many times, now and on the previous > discussion about this feature long time ago, why > it would be so helpful to me that I will be > happy to devote many hours to tag as many > commands as possible. I don't have any problem with the _possibility_ for someone to tag something any way they want, or with someone providing some code that _lets_ users take advantage of such tags. The problem isn't with providing new possibilities for users. The problem is with changing what already exists - the default behavior. I've argued in _favor_ of users being able to more easily filter completion candidates. That's not a problem. Add something to Emacs as an option, then wait and see how much it's taken up by users. If it turns out that zillions think it should take more prominence, or even become new default behavior, then that'll get done. That's not the same as just flipping default behavior for one's favorite shiny new thing. One good way such new-feature change can take place is for someone to code it up in a 3rd-party library, and for users in the wider world to start using it. Later, after we've seen what that experiment's given, think about maybe doing the same or something similar in vanilla Emacs. > Then you handwave away common-sense arguments > as irrelevant or conflicting with some sort > of imagined scenario, I have no idea what you're talking about there. Specifics, please. > or because it goes against some personal habits > of abusing a feature One person's "abuse" of some existing Emacs behavior/feature is another person's handy use case. To be quite clear, I doubt that any of what's being discussed about this new behavior will affect me much, personally. For example, I use Icicles, which has its own replacement for `M-x'. (Of course, if code changes are incompatible then I will perhaps have to modify some of my code accordingly. But as a _user_ my guess is that I won't be affected much, if at all.) My concern is for Emacs, not just for my own use of it. The burden of convincing is on those who intend to _change_ the existing behavior. This is normal. Someone might think their change is wonderful, but it might remove or negatively impact Emacs uses by others. Is that not something to take into consideration? > (M-x for remembering commands instead of C-h a? I, for one, said nothing about M-x for remembering commands. I have no idea what you're on about, here. > Seriously? And why that is an impediment for > improving M-x to better function for its stated > purpose?) Again, no idea what you're taking about. The burden of convincing to make some change (e.g. to "improve M-x to better function" is on the promoter of the change. That general rule has nothing to do with me. > You don't see a benefit on this feature *for you*. > Fair enough. You are uneasy with the changes on > `interactive'. Again, what I've written about this reflects what I think (so far) _for Emacs_. It's not really about my personal use of Emacs. I live in my own little Icicles world, somewhat insulated from your `M-x' etc. But I care about Emacs - beyond my own habits and use of it. Pretty much everything has benefits and drawbacks. See above. Propose something that's optional and opt-in, and I expect there will be little contest. > I wholeheartedly sympathize with you here, for > the reasons you expressed and some more. But > please don't come with "what's the evidence for > the need of it?",=20 Why? That's standard procedure, no? Propose a change and convince people that it would be a good thing - better done than not done. > because you are sending a clear signal about > being utterly uninterested on other's opinions. No, I don't think I am. But I do think that an attitude of not needing to give reasons in favor of some desired change, in particular an incompatible or default change, kinda qualifies as showing disinterest and disrespect for longstanding Emacs behavior, and thus for its users. I don't even need to express my opinion about a proposed change. It's up to those promoting it to convince others that the change is needed or a great idea. I'm not convinced, in this case, but I don't decide anything here. It's not me you need to convince. That said, I will say that I - for one - am not convinced.