From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: master 927b885 1/3: Disable filtering of commands in M-x completion Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:42:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210217165944.26910.26583@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <20210217165946.030D420DFC@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <87blcih3ar.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87sg5toh2y.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87a6s1e3a3.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83zh01419g.fsf@gnu.org> <83sg5t408m.fsf@gnu.org> <5079ff93-1844-6e26-1219-75513abf3c3b@gmx.at> <837dn44fmu.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29592"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "rudalics@gmx.at" , "juri@linkov.net" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 19 18:52:47 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lD9xP-0007as-46 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:52:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38936 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lD9xO-0000UA-4y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:52:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50404) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lD9nR-0005mf-K8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:42:29 -0500 Original-Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:40480) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lD9nO-0006mz-Q3; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:42:29 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 11JHeZmU118491; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:42:17 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=jtet3ULAKFqU8poitZNert1yR8rouDvxT3il0OxFC7g=; b=x6gEwlvtmKv+qWlrFpaEuswX8Sc0hriMqdkRiVvaSWaB9z19szD5QKih8asVqWnuUMRe 3KWEPDgFqKcO9tu20Mp32YZSN6CirZjR3O6JJ4P3XwnsH6n7zIHsmdz3kk1pEH+Bpwwx Ob8g3HN0NGhdoPLVbdn8jaVWKTr/PTvSUOrWS24w93t3nQpjqCmN7cCWCy7JIU1a2sHn txJlr/ctHUb8QTdjg3k8+q6IygP29kExkhD8nLLyeopR/ivUMcX7B5JBHQnCRUZxhnHT Eu+zcdJeIjmmeAHr4FUx1hYUCvElwrYnu12C2ukN0OgnaUi85RYzOLR2iwHWsasBu62w cA== Original-Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36p7dnt77n-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:42:17 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 11JHeLm5071128; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:42:16 GMT Original-Received: from nam10-dm6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam10lp2101.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.58.101]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36prp351qs-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:42:16 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=YXS74iJZdi10MSu/qbXzHTwo+A3cZdieSlAZDtkVkszQJuN8ye5WtQHAemle38yT8Y3k10xSHXFLEKYYPDifuI3i6fXCnB0PFCDUrkjvTS09ZinbooLGsK++lsOBjZAi9OHBWPiO83aVawP0YqMPk5tR9WEf1rfvD4nSKj/3LD0ZfG+cfd4R0IYU2q8UGXdo5cQlWTcXyvUNfcVhW8dsqcaZ+bQOPYdWCOcyvhjr6GhelQIKEfuWFYFfEViDamnvpd4D53p9tTfVv/zx7MjCwcthN0WBMhkP6z3+FJEh4X+ZZL5bEJNuA7t6fR27BIzw40eR0I0BFHozMicV4T0G7A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=jtet3ULAKFqU8poitZNert1yR8rouDvxT3il0OxFC7g=; b=Bju3U1bKLhZOnLqD7B2HbdTj9ouog48nwhPcqLELOFI7E4MtxrHjzgTodF8kKQmkgh33oKfWOYJ8GK5bGAgq2OIwe2HSUCl5UhHQybLqixkvV4lw0etKAaQcJa6ngkYENMpt8gb7AkP0ZgGQM6ASBedzHhuJDffKkfU2dTtl4OsOBvWOt5IvLeAhkSBTgslVU5FrXzzQ4Of6GPSOpbQUNN7Q4oFH5CwcNVrnffV0a9jOCGu+mmNkyhaLDtt6QIE44RODV8rXftVDBcb30N28Fpk8F+tkQcMjcXBreJAB62hKlnACp8SH/dP1vZndm/AMt/gjZaz8HNB5N52R4J6Y6g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=jtet3ULAKFqU8poitZNert1yR8rouDvxT3il0OxFC7g=; b=J1z5hVAeW1C1fc7ADAmt/eWR1CBCwYsOIfV3zkm2nf/CpwBODDu4XmZVEaZWgnHiCchBuEUraS2feWi+QhvQ3+QqT/sXMOOlfcwHhitsDtb/Ukiix99euOrW6V+y82RBdXfE+gr6JUQ0+gOHH5pw7rMoLCpgQ6q8h+3DlTgtctk= Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11b::15) by SN6PR10MB2797.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:805:cb::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3846.29; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:42:14 +0000 Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b8d2:db6d:3e4b:d315]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b8d2:db6d:3e4b:d315%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3846.043; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:42:14 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: master 927b885 1/3: Disable filtering of commands in M-x completion Thread-Index: AQHXBpp7hn40l+085EmvjkGiT9D6l6pfsOtg In-Reply-To: <837dn44fmu.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 23147cde-0287-4864-8849-08d8d4fdb1bd x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2797: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ev/XSud90dNA6oLX6xgLlcFh06HMzR8qIEyFEayVw6S85IPNU8tnTepk2PWYha8ONRow6BLh0N9K6uxMkZSeAJ6dYMK3pKnyJx9/+RKNkj9hGgitR6ao3lEr6MDHOVbHF3mpRfAHHCh7+F1u9DYPm/2wlPTl3URsj3htSVXc9yoqL60OpE3H7H9E1Q1G8X1PVROf/MWq1RSwbitypOSKFjxigH5cVl8jTpfR02ayWaifJvzUIwOpY7lvN84qyuXwYLPhfVRhA4MgjfeZ+6gQg7k4PVsNYXfhtRPL1SuMXvikT3/oH20/9tBnotOtpx2VRVZibbnSRxOOnp+/7tFJ3CeaA7/fCZ0Zz3H2z+d4NLyKKRZozc+9eAt+hHvIFQA4OrFd/HXpcBm0UOpM04+fUOV+Ax0v2ypVYojyuHhC8jyOXswwjkMQchN75Ne92EhFUXq4xnUVcQvTeNYKmIheP9HxiXVfwuG342HyxLhC1CU0ilFPg4ZM20kOB0z9LDwe9ryDErqKyMiwxH+n7oKZrw== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(396003)(136003)(39860400002)(366004)(346002)(376002)(26005)(71200400001)(9686003)(44832011)(186003)(55016002)(2906002)(83380400001)(52536014)(7696005)(6506007)(76116006)(5660300002)(86362001)(478600001)(8936002)(33656002)(6916009)(54906003)(4326008)(316002)(8676002)(66556008)(64756008)(66446008)(66946007)(66476007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?us-ascii?Q?oWLJZe4i7X3UN+P24Yg750iVhBWaFc/0ObzN9l3TNbsyw6bqunJV+5+YIJ9u?= =?us-ascii?Q?2KseFO+uN27gemJWHeNBRRueVc76bWlv0Utrmwzlkh6756nSlo/MZZsQBx1g?= =?us-ascii?Q?Vr1qhb4bOLo61wjnCur0pZruJquhyCx1ZEtKMHZ+rkTAWO2PkgcFy6FS09uY?= =?us-ascii?Q?t7DdpB/QUqDa/SHDbY29PtSlV89t1Oe/2mivK1MqYxAz0KaKIi36XP3Dfomb?= =?us-ascii?Q?brl+P8/+TOko84v9O0GvholBZhcChs3L3kzqufWdqvPPi/X9Q9AnhilKimg8?= =?us-ascii?Q?e4tGvl4Q5dmTilJn7TUpQNEAW9p/b3mc07nwGsMLUGugkM3KYRxhBDR8KHTD?= =?us-ascii?Q?tzHzOkICxj4fv9mMVpVLs9rrfsom0N3SXnSjxx75AuLkXJCq8hY3RfDFwZ6b?= =?us-ascii?Q?FsYaolnjU4829nIsVeYf+HrmMRpMaHYPmDcQI0hBLwDInqgknmnRdDBfPTOz?= =?us-ascii?Q?L6rssv4um5QQ5aVBdODM1sQB2Xfexh0vwImKafdW9ZcPRqbeukRrtTbBMwHb?= =?us-ascii?Q?e/DcyQq9D+eEUBu46wNggC8uisO7KUoRbvm4bkcGr59ap0ZcxaPrnKLo4lml?= =?us-ascii?Q?/9gD5W9mIRn0mbFvmcLqx/sQEVpsRXGeYgL+aAsb/7QUWg9CqNmRr2HEtPUY?= =?us-ascii?Q?DmbK x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 23147cde-0287-4864-8849-08d8d4fdb1bd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Feb 2021 17:42:14.6508 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: tYfamYtvqBz+WP24JJ4434M1FBw+qfFCafxbIOynPDi9OhRvlmMPHU6rfb/pKU76otC55scBKM39hLMJY7Fn2Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2797 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9900 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102190138 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9900 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102190138 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=156.151.31.85; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:265276 Archived-At: > > And the doc of `mark-even-if-inactive' says > > nothing about the mark existing - it's only about > > whether the mark (assuming it exists) is active. >=20 > Precisely. So what exactly is the problem with the docs? Are you > saying you don't know what "active mark" or "active region" means? > I'd be surprised. No, I'm not saying that. To me, that doc describes sensible behavior. I sloppily wrote "No mark set, no active region." in my recipe to you, when I should have said "Mark not active". And that mistake set off some confused back & forth about whether there was a mark (i.e., mark set). The problem I raised from the beginning is with the doc of `interactive' (for code `r'). The doc string says only: r -- Region: point and mark as 2 numeric args, smallest first. Does no I/O. It says nothing about raising an error if not active and `mark-even*' is nil. The expectation from reading that is that `interactive' just provides the region limits as args, always - no error. The Elisp manual says this for `r': Point and the mark, as two numeric arguments, smallest first. This is the only code letter that specifies two successive arguments rather than one. This will signal an error if the mark is not set in the buffer which is current when the command is invoked. No I/O. It says that an error is raised when there is no mark (which is true, but incomplete). It should perhaps instead say (and so should the doc string, if we want to be complete), that an error is raised if either (1) there is no mark or (2) the mark is not active and `mark-even-if-inactive' is nil. Another possibility is to say nothing at all about raising an error. The `mark-even*' behavior doesn't really have anything to do with `interactive' specifically. You might say sure, we need not say anything about an error from inactive with `mark-even*' =3D nil, but we should mention an error if no mark. IOW, just what we say now. I'd argue that it can be confusing to just call out that special (not too common) case, and not mention the more common case where an error is raised for an inactive region (modulo the option value). But I recognize that that more common error is not, strictly speaking, about `r'. And I don't feel strongly about this. I'll point out that this all started because Juri wrote: I'd like also to suggest to filter out commands having "r" in their interactive specs - they signal an error when the region is not active, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ so no need to show them. And yes, we can assume that Juri (like I) knows "what 'active mark' or 'active region' means." What he said is perhaps further demonstration that the `interactive' `r' doc could be clearer or more helpful. Had he not been mistaken about that, there would have been no follow-up by me, pointing out that an inactive region _doesn't_ necessarily raise an error for `interactive' `r'. ___ As for whether commands with `r' in their specs should be filtered out, presumably the filtering condition should be this: (1) no mark OR [(2) `mark-even*' =3D nil AND (3) inactive region] (Personally, I'm not in favor of such filtering, as I've said, but at least it should be accurate.) ___ One source of confusion in our exchange was no doubt due to my likely using `M-x set-variable' to set option `mark-even*' to nil. I shouldn't have done that. There's apparently the equivalent of a :set function in the C definition of the defcustom. Bypassing that (which `set-variable' does) results in no error being raised when the region is inactive. (This happens if you use `set-variable' at the outset or after using Customize to "Revert this session's customization". It doesn't happen if you use `set-variable' after using Customize just to toggle the value.)