From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Concern about new binding. Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:24:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87zh0mmr54.fsf@gmail.com> <87y2g5smya.fsf@gmail.com> <4FF55FBF-573D-4A70-B3FC-682CA25B7ECB@gnu.org> <83lfc53whk.fsf@gnu.org> <20210203180142.seu6o3i6u7jhkyrh@Ergus> <83eehx3to5.fsf@gnu.org> <20210203221628.xgvvxjvh56gyswba@Ergus> <20210204070033.pm4ido4hq7a6twif@Ergus> <83sg6brhyg.fsf@gnu.org> <83v9b7orny.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13108"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Eli Zaretskii , "rms@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 05 19:55:19 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l86GE-0003EN-H8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 19:55:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36710 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l86GD-00046o-GZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 13:55:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35070) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l85mf-0007q4-1c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 13:24:45 -0500 Original-Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:35972) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l85mc-0005Vd-MH; Fri, 05 Feb 2021 13:24:44 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 115IJX44002062; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:24:40 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=6CLbnxPwhz0BSsxzYW4w0lFSKMXfAY7qdpiOCGEZLnw=; b=OZcrDViwb/p3JLcgTGBLG+2RUdUInzYF2zj/RKuekZ01R5qxggzG9XMiGcqolfIJO+I/ twJMFxZ7383kFuP9LxKX2lMu1VB6Zsj48tTR7V8JiYVcz5mEdpTk7XL8D0B3kBz/bcgg dzhRrErZZQ3AF79NyxfH6k1sfZPT1hrqdLayuP3Ab/KxOeGauA4KpBJ12e+F6FelScpR dkfgSpqMGSrhFPHkX+XQ4Jli57wdGR2iucgNTNWGwzd8Us46EtnT4U9urUgM5X+tbpt3 1k2W/11TPu7qJ4Cl7s5Zx3NqPRwxeFj62Re4HX18DApLRwZnDn4Rj//X9lYzBdC986qM Zw== Original-Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36gfw8tt38-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 05 Feb 2021 18:24:40 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 115IFiFE009547; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:24:39 GMT Original-Received: from nam12-dm6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam12lp2174.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.59.174]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36dh1ua9n6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 05 Feb 2021 18:24:39 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=IU21Ga7XhYr5zRrYLP5XKkvXT+ObsoBW6OII0ZdPuoAW6PZadWukKY5wMuUUcn9CitbpdIcAiGYvVGTyQS9bOIC8yOd2/dae4SONkJyR5lJKFGZ4E7kJsiX0/2PsNghCd/dYxQchbqkPP9sP/iH5TLfP+LYPvDPVzx+rdgSlALSKsj3M7ZFnDyXBhmjm6bkeq4j/OUJU71JlpJyK4Z4hz8ESEbI7tYMt2BrkDEqSi16ByWHHvucojTBOP0E4LDwy2XAHX2i124MMnroVN0dwFjBWnVIy2+5IjCQMU0ZKe9IHEitY9DPeGin4U1FPzDtnypfFm5s9GD34Bfo6xbq8bA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=6CLbnxPwhz0BSsxzYW4w0lFSKMXfAY7qdpiOCGEZLnw=; b=Ya5DqFf6NXE2K+YKo5GdGJqTE0Cq/eoXFXH0pKZQRpWVbIsT2tDUrvKqv0COD6BQYGpEOKhcxWNWWOctj37bxeWCrvwjjhxYiuxw8jGdsLmNgKydXM9o8qU9ozgMkDco31516431YAoulKJJMVQ9B1m493wE9dOHwkeISt55l84y/vki82Idrm7uIoWukA1H9xv6BixcCFGA5qm3Ch3Idr9HoJuTs5OoCUm2UXaT8zGc0CI1x3IHSF6pEWyXvvigzZ9hD6Jcy5TdK4MaJ/1O0Ad5K1fQ4yIUMpnqDffpLLmecK2aRQ5JBfJbG48LHxaLLIzcTDCVUpnvX1+9SrBkAg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=6CLbnxPwhz0BSsxzYW4w0lFSKMXfAY7qdpiOCGEZLnw=; b=eP0A8+gNZYo8dfycRF/lMU1ClEWfOZbqM1qZAKVMWAFDT8VXT7VZNWbsokiMPLYEKp5x9rkevyP3ZkaAmdRcu5xwAU41l9nxEmHmiHZtFqFVJ88eg7BacjxCicVzW7p4TELwR0RE27YAJKEXWAMC5SiemIV0puBop8QEIyrgUrU= Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11b::15) by SN6PR10MB2432.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:805:46::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3825.17; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:24:38 +0000 Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc4d:9cd0:2010:daa2]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc4d:9cd0:2010:daa2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3825.024; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:24:38 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Concern about new binding. Thread-Index: AQHW++woOq8vb8Swe02s3oly9UpLww== In-Reply-To: <83v9b7orny.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 31565bc5-6431-46b3-d7c3-08d8ca034bea x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2432: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(136003)(366004)(39860400002)(346002)(396003)(376002)(33656002)(71200400001)(6506007)(7696005)(8676002)(4326008)(110136005)(316002)(450100002)(186003)(26005)(44832011)(52536014)(8936002)(66446008)(64756008)(76116006)(66556008)(66476007)(66946007)(86362001)(5660300002)(9686003)(478600001)(2906002)(83380400001)(55016002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?us-ascii?Q?C0atTKUxt9kjcvIrcl++GBlVelsDh9ksJ+rT7vQH1CVyevd0V141hSbpm96g?= =?us-ascii?Q?kc4PHYRD8r7Cw3GLpQQtX5K3CZlTqt0tl8Z0vIiMhfPDN6wHKeqeptt6MY2J?= =?us-ascii?Q?MsZ+VzZwHw+UFeJupvUduUEosVwLm0F28wOhC3bwO/XSJoH+Fv3XZVXNDSAg?= =?us-ascii?Q?ag0M8eyH0VGZUvQqEOyzwAYpjmiwXeuQt8kIYErkbUizit4sDARD8fUCkqtD?= =?us-ascii?Q?Ih0qalZ3MsJtM5yyvUleI26as8XIerLlMAWcGzKrTP2DDP5ubnSw3udjA3iJ?= =?us-ascii?Q?OsV7CD0XV6hnEqqXBajX5F7Jydv/LdZ3+SOgTQnMnvEGHoAAON9qy3bZNpiB?= =?us-ascii?Q?FrjOqH+qZ6aJ0rAlbDoyOPjoifYy51dlmNgw/Z36oCvEkLddErEmaXXNRMd5?= =?us-ascii?Q?K1Yc5Pv7sgQoBXJJYeUmoHeQ3ue2fmypoDC9lOeiqmx6KvCS83Fz4fFXtQHX?= =?us-ascii?Q?oBQys7J7sWP18xphrzYrYgcjkbvM8Weg1WFvYx0WUlSsYw4TOOyIhk6oaBIU?= =?us-ascii?Q?9idjv9m2XWhHOw5ujXqwQdsfUjTcoRPeSc42UCIGaG08bXWJGIdM/XENpR6O?= =?us-ascii?Q?R7igvDg+8m5QpLQLJLefXXQUuX0/twH8zL4RhwwZQUUjonNmvbAIJQJReVFb?= =?us-ascii?Q?1sNS x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 31565bc5-6431-46b3-d7c3-08d8ca034bea X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Feb 2021 18:24:37.9075 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: BcZmiS0h/GU6wlcTGcCiGJQy0ePVkaSbBKndb1mc/dLjanPdTwzWgmd98w/9DeZu4oX38x8ZguI9onj4MPF7pg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2432 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9885 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102050114 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9885 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102050114 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=156.151.31.85; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:263998 Archived-At: > > More than that. Over that time, how often have people > > asked for such a global binding? >=20 > We never bother ourselves with such questions; never did. We consider > ourselves to be aware and familiar enough with the Emacs usage > landscape to make such decisions without polling users on each and > every step,=20 I think Richard was not talking about polling, there. I mentioned polling. He added something else: how often have users _asked_ for this? Do we have bug reports (feature requests) for it? Any? Many? (I too had mentioned this point earlier, though not in the mail that Richard replied too.) > because doing so would slow down development to an > unbearable crawl. I always believed that at least part of the reasons > we were nominated as maintainers was that people trust us to be > capable of representing the bulk of Emacs users, and do it well enough > to avoid too many serious mistakes. That's true. I don't think anyone disrespects the maintainers. I sure don't. I'm very appreciative of the hard work they do - and their judgment, in general. In particular, FWIW, I appreciate what some (many?) might consider to be your conservative push-back about many proposed changes. Sometimes I voice an explicit "+1"; sometimes I say nothing. But to myself I often say how lucky we are that you don't just go along lightly with some new-change proposal. That said, no one is infallible. Leaders that people respect the most often make mistakes. In this particular case, no one has said that a "serious mistake" was made. And we've agreed, I think, that it's not wrong for someone (especially a maintainer) in a bug thread to make a change. And that that change can be reversed, especially if it's not a big one. Some of us have argued, in this particular case, that the decision to give a default binding to `C-x g' should be reversed - at least pending more discussion. That should be possible especially since the change hasn't been made to a release, and especially because this "mistake" is _not_ a serious one. (What was argued wrt changes made in bug threads was to avoid changes that range much wider than the bug or feature request itself. That's all. In the current case, moving from a request for a key for shell buffer reverting to the "need" for a global key for buffer reverting.) > In a case such as this one, when one of the maintainers says "this > makes sense", I expect to hear technical arguments for or against that > (btw, only agreements were heard when the original decision in this > case was made), but I do NOT expect to hear "go ask the world because > you don't really know what you are talking about". 1. I gave technical arguments. I've even repeated them, since. 2. It's not true that only agreements were heard. I expressed disagreement from the outset. > In all the 30 years of my uninterrupted active involvement with Emacs > development, I don't remember even a single instance of polling users > before making user-visible decisions. (I may have missed one or two, > but it cannot be more than that.) I'm astonished to hear such demands Have you heard a "demand" now? I don't think you've heard any demands whatsoever. (Ever.) Let's not descend into hyperbole, please. > now. If this is indeed what's required from Emacs maintainers, I will > seriously consider resigning, because I cannot in good faith support > such ridiculous development practices, let alone such level of > mistrust towards my and Lars's experience and knowhow. Please don't be so defensive. No one is attacking you or Lars. It's not about you or Lars or disrespecting the authority or responsibility of maintainers. Not at all. And no, please don't consider resigning. You've threatened that multiple times over the years. I think we're all glad that you've kept at it. I can understand the pressure of the job and its responsibilities. Know that your work here is appreciated. I hope that knowledge makes a difference.