From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [External] : Re: Current mode command discovery Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 19:43:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87v9aubm96.fsf@gnus.org> <838s7qbjn2.fsf@gnu.org> <87eehi820x.fsf@gnus.org> <83v9at9xel.fsf@gnu.org> <87wnv8xlqa.fsf@gnus.org> <838s7o9g90.fsf@gnu.org> <87im6revhq.fsf@tcd.ie> <83im6r98qd.fsf@gnu.org> <87k0r7uade.fsf@gnus.org> <83eehf978r.fsf@gnu.org> <87ft1vu9hd.fsf@gnus.org> <838s7n95pf.fsf@gnu.org> <8735xvu7sx.fsf@gnus.org> <834kib94ha.fsf@gnu.org> <874kibh9mu.fsf@telefonica.net> <83o8gi7lh2.fsf@gnu.org> <871rdebmmh.fsf@telefonica.net> <831rdc4epn.fsf@gnu.org> <87o8ggte2j.fsf@gnus.org> <83lfbj1av3.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35811"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "ofv@wanadoo.es" , "rms@gnu.org" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" , "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" , "larsi@gnus.org" , "yandros@gmail.com" To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 20 20:44:59 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lDYBW-0009CG-MD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 20:44:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47252 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDYBV-00075C-MR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 14:44:57 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51806) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDY9o-0006WZ-Pl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 14:43:12 -0500 Original-Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:54988) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDY9j-0007rm-9q; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 14:43:12 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 11KJeIxX134374; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 19:43:03 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=Kwg8m0tel3ewPYAxkVObCdjzjDIVtHIOeftCa12ZheY=; b=XKQLX+T6zSFHAAHWjDwUonNjmO+dXnl+TN3lanPVO8Gj1D41xOIgP526wOe6t8Hw0Od/ eqQIArffhF1AA3mSMkGPqYYA+wIpQ/9LBczfGZbTC0EZeYzOABCeu9I56P6Gjqr+uatN bUurAYV8bCCy9xau9X8eSJ/Gnst6h4RzB05xiBAbdRaike8zgQORO+54YBSqJd9cz13k A6q7HpBQzRSTj0rJqTklQKFimbcptRnJPMuYrre6lAppbcEihNC/T1vzUBsNTzOA01A5 +eHqSE/D8nAJStjQLCHvqtIx8nwksErvAgSswQ0AY9c30z/xHVnACEtHsd8QIJCJNNKb zQ== Original-Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36tu2n0srh-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 20 Feb 2021 19:43:03 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 11KJeH3H010889; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 19:43:03 GMT Original-Received: from nam02-sn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02lp2051.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.51]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 36tqhsay1v-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 20 Feb 2021 19:43:03 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=H8gFrwEEhm3OpYpB+3oFJliBJtXvU7fbmaIjU0Dn5y3ExIW/VBdtpfbpv7VM/7cad/dtwKepmV7muqu7BVl2jwRrkMaJtzcva1LXX/w1g0f3uf3T8sNZFI94+MRJP/UFipY30/HGDxzwM1xTiwCnXDidaJLuR9j/WjUkhHDMGDI2fSxsRWBpBHji3lqxPpy/odbyjTVAQNmQc4HNVXLdOM5GxJIMEb63aEt1lL79FGIkYE4ybJ7d78QhaFXlqVxDWYG9KkCwXtwxau/6q2hLqnpvKOdeGiObYlXpFJmq/FUIlhWwfsBRohxBfWOefp8QoeIn6CTQwCvxHB0vOM98mQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Kwg8m0tel3ewPYAxkVObCdjzjDIVtHIOeftCa12ZheY=; b=EZxN2fYa8UCMtJwj12A/aeL6wigx6xeWcyt/jcj4DZ5QcMcfttVtFxDNo8tvbTPPTsLgDtHAZR5g9ff6xOERRE+51mBP/SdsE9EjVuVoWH99bZ3WFkNBUzAkJ8RDMb1EP9VYMRHwZjl3XWOoAD2nd630WG0fIN4yhxXb8s/d22lhbLp53LoaChpO2njjhByVQn6cfcjbdOrnUzZir1UrEM9nu4P2ua+9DWQI87jBwD1qTu8l+EQOCIadBPvr95rQxMevV8LW4FEDG+5EB2bII9TdieE2GT5I0BInYcBbDrBbI29+fsfu9FJ4V+WAUrFmP4QFJB1KK9Uuh/U6pDo1/g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Kwg8m0tel3ewPYAxkVObCdjzjDIVtHIOeftCa12ZheY=; b=MuOgGPm8/ezpmUrYUN8XUfT9L+nBUSqaBubmXen2U3CA0USiGiKWfvyyZedujoQ7dM2urqYi+TSAyyF+Qio1aQIe3AHEeSjYWIHZn2QtVkHlTZdsAazANwydIAJsmskDGpPy0ztkIBMt8WQ7sRoV5JJX8qFPWuwpJV3MxYfYdsk= Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11b::15) by SA2PR10MB4634.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:114::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3846.27; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 19:43:01 +0000 Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b8d2:db6d:3e4b:d315]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b8d2:db6d:3e4b:d315%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3846.043; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 19:43:00 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: Current mode command discovery Thread-Index: AQHXB1YwAcw3exOIcUaxCYWW4/uIwaphZnMg In-Reply-To: <83lfbj1av3.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 56cc3e5e-e90a-47b6-d683-08d8d5d7bb3b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SA2PR10MB4634: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(396003)(346002)(39860400002)(376002)(136003)(8936002)(26005)(33656002)(6916009)(2906002)(8676002)(71200400001)(66446008)(316002)(54906003)(66946007)(64756008)(66476007)(66556008)(4326008)(44832011)(6506007)(5660300002)(83380400001)(86362001)(7696005)(55016002)(478600001)(186003)(52536014)(9686003)(76116006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: =?us-ascii?Q?8Fk+xIkCZElQEyxwurwJJ3KXaVFbYw4BVcZXa9BdXdAIncNvSDSzCiUDaBJI?= =?us-ascii?Q?JbtwAj7LrksPnRR/VkV4D5ILIPa0MkeOyK9PG6R8+jLL4bZj54OAxV/itySf?= =?us-ascii?Q?KPUMqRmVZnE9gXplKrlqT5l2WAn86yQaoR9bBWd3nkpDT9Q7dx6xfab577Gs?= =?us-ascii?Q?mcbYn6WeR6Y8/J8YJ5IL54g8oOC8qYAaXKm+WQBev2cIWLmQylwNUmMTZUgX?= =?us-ascii?Q?91C1w8XsYDR+mFQYhWkJetVJBAFpIVAFa16QPKfhB3oihZPXQMGbrtTDqJVO?= =?us-ascii?Q?J2n/Y7XXM9UqD+Gf6aa6caCQJSRWVXhbLvMDCF2afbq1FeN7xwjWtMkC3UXr?= =?us-ascii?Q?XpF/PT6V0hblwOuk9pvkzb7OkHMPm/MOVmCElvvQ18AI2cD97zCyP6+8b/Wz?= =?us-ascii?Q?fbmtWUnPRuPsoSfwJwv1kO7IBU7seom2uLsG7lRol4iCtCCg26Wro5KQATvs?= =?us-ascii?Q?G7RKBTYAFtTr2h5p1DTYJy29UUeTL83P5UTqWHaKKBGl184Fzv5j1TbS+kV/?= =?us-ascii?Q?cAKQErFpalzeA5tswdPWxEpjqHSgwVf6dfQ6NDOqV9YBbOSRVBaLNTRN7tnA?= =?us-ascii?Q?JgiUYMw+HCtJe7LAf2a1c00TzcdEsFRmm4kyRdgWXcrPZOsAfGZ67oL4f0F1?= =?us-ascii?Q?V3yl x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 56cc3e5e-e90a-47b6-d683-08d8d5d7bb3b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Feb 2021 19:43:00.7566 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 639aFBONIsT5IZzArV64yXecDlA0871rjeu9imDxaE2qctBouKH4MrDPxnddUBcag7T/mpEaLT2AoT3sdCV2+g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR10MB4634 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9901 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102200182 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9901 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2102200182 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=156.151.31.85; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:265348 Archived-At: > > Speaking of a symbol property... > > > > IMHO, all of the shenanigans undertaken recently > > to provide command enabling/filtering should be > > replaced by simply using a property on command > > symbols. (Maybe more than one property, if you > > really need something complex for some reason.) >=20 > This was suggested long ago as one of the alternatives for the > extension of 'interactive'. Yes, I know. > Lars still doesn't think it is better (I disagree). Yes, I know. > > I realize that this has already been suggested. > > The threads are long and rambling, and I may well > > have missed something, but I don't recall any > > good reason given for rejecting this approach. >=20 > Lars gave his reasons, but I don't consider them > to be good enough. A succinct relisting of those reasons would be good, IMO. I, for one, completely missed them. There's nothing I'm aware of that's better suited for this than using a symbol property. Simple; flexible; usable by any party, anywhere, anytime. No mess, no fuss. No source code changes (except to get & test the property). What's going on instead -- has been, still is, incomplete, and will need updating forever -- seems complicated, error prone, time-consuming,=20 overengineered, and simply not necessary. IMHO. (But what do I know?)