M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Eli Zaretskii]

I see this in all versions of Emacs 21, including 21.1, the current CVS, 
and the pretest of 21.2, both in the tty version and on X:

  emacs -q --no-site-file
  M-x customize-variable RET truncate-lines RET

(actually, any variable will do).  Now watch closely: there's an extra 
"[Hide]" button to the right of the first line of the doc string.

Bug or feature?  (It looks like a bug to me, but what do I know?)

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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Per Abrahamsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@is.elta.co.il> writes:

>  Now watch closely: there's an extra "[Hide]" button to the right of
> the first line of the doc string.

I only see one [Hide] button to the right of the first line of the doc
string. It was there in Emacs 20 too, it hides the doc string.  Push
the [Display] button at the bottom of the screen to see when it can be
useful.

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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Per Abrahamsen wrote:

> I only see one [Hide] button to the right of the first line of the doc
> string.

That's the one I meant.  I said ``extra'' because there's one more "Hide" 
button a little ways above this one and to the left.

> It was there in Emacs 20 too, it hides the doc string.

If it hides the doc string, I think it should say that.  Just by looking 
at it, its purpose is not clear.

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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Per Abrahamsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@is.elta.co.il> writes:

> On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Per Abrahamsen wrote:
>
>> It was there in Emacs 20 too, it hides the doc string.
>
> If it hides the doc string, I think it should say that. 

It does, move the mouse pointer above it and read the tool tip (or tab
your way to it and read the help echo).

> Just by looking at it, its purpose is not clear.

There are not space for any larger string, and it is hardly
important.  The important button is the [Show] button displayed when
the documentation string is hidden.

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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Richard Stallman]

    If it hides the doc string, I think it should say that.  Just by looking 
    at it, its purpose is not clear.

I think "hide doc" might be a good thing for it to say,
if there is room on the line.  But it looks like there isn't room.

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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Richard Stallman wrote:

>     If it hides the doc string, I think it should say that.  Just by looking 
>     at it, its purpose is not clear.
> 
> I think "hide doc" might be a good thing for it to say,
> if there is room on the line.  But it looks like there isn't room.

Then how about changing the name to "Less" (it says "More" right now,
after you click it).  Or some other, equally short string.

My point is that it's confusing to have two buttons labeled the same.  

Also, the position where the button is placed, right near the doc string, 
looked like a bug to me.  Is there a way to have more separation between 
the doc string and the button, at least on character terminals?

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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Kim F. Storm]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@is.elta.co.il> writes:

> On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, Richard Stallman wrote:
> 
> >     If it hides the doc string, I think it should say that.  Just by looking 
> >     at it, its purpose is not clear.
> > 
> > I think "hide doc" might be a good thing for it to say,
> > if there is room on the line.  But it looks like there isn't room.
> 
> Then how about changing the name to "Less" (it says "More" right now,
> after you click it).  Or some other, equally short string.
> 

Some applications use buttons labelled [>>] and [<<] for more and less.

> My point is that it's confusing to have two buttons labeled the same.  

I agree.


BTW, I think the first [Hide] button should hide the state entirely,
rather than wasting a line to print the current dummy state.


And while we are at it -- why doesn't customize utilize the tool-bar
(when available and enabled) rather than using the current in-text
buttons (which always scroll out of view when looking at a
customization group):

 [Set for Current Session] [Save for Future Sessions]
 [Reset] [Reset to Saved Erase Customization]  [Finish]








-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk


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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Richard Stallman]

    BTW, I think the first [Hide] button should hide the state entirely,
    rather than wasting a line to print the current dummy state.

I think I agree.

    And while we are at it -- why doesn't customize utilize the tool-bar
    (when available and enabled) rather than using the current in-text
    buttons (which always scroll out of view when looking at a
    customization group):

Would someone like to do it?

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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Richard Stallman]

    Then how about changing the name to "Less" (it says "More" right now,
    after you click it).  Or some other, equally short string.

That might help, or it might be confusing to beginners.  (Nowhere else
is "less" used to mean "you can ask to see less of this.")  I don't
know whether this is an improvement.


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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Per Abrahamsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     BTW, I think the first [Hide] button should hide the state entirely,
>     rather than wasting a line to print the current dummy state.
>
> I think I agree.

If anyone want to experiment with that, customize the
custom-magic-show-hidden option.

Given that such an option exists, I suspect there were arguments both
ways in the early days of customize.

I have no opinion of what the default value should be.

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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Richard Stallman]

    Given that such an option exists, I suspect there were arguments both
    ways in the early days of customize.

It looks like you added that option.  Do you remember why?


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Re: M-x customize strangeness with "Hide" button

[Per Abrahamsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     Given that such an option exists, I suspect there were arguments both
>     ways in the early days of customize.
>
> It looks like you added that option.  Do you remember why?

No.

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