From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta Subject: Re: Permission to use portions of the recent GNU Emacs Manual Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:27:39 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1102786814 11724 80.91.229.6 (11 Dec 2004 17:40:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:40:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, xemacs-beta@xemacs.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 11 18:40:09 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CdBE1-0002h6-00 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:40:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CdBO1-0003AU-KG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:50:29 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CdBNs-00039I-8D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:50:20 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CdBNr-00038p-2N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:50:19 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CdBNq-00038i-Ue for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:50:18 -0500 Original-Received: from [193.149.49.134] (helo=acm.acm) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CdBCH-0001sC-Jv; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:38:22 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by acm.acm (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00312; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:27:40 GMT X-Sender: root@acm.acm Original-To: Richard Stallman , Ben Wing In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:31001 gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta:17402 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31001 Hi, Richard and Ben, On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, Richard Stallman wrote: > The GNU Emacs user's manual has changed its license to the GFDL. > The XEmacs manual has a different license -- the GPL. Because of > contributions from various parties, we cannot easily change our > license, >Too bad. I won't relicense such a large amount of material all >together. There is irony in that sentence. >If you show me specific parts you would like to use, I will consider >relicensing them. I'm speaking as somebody who's put a significant amount of time into amending the Emacs manual (e.g. programs.texi). I did so under the impression that what I was amending was free, in the same sense that the Emacs Lisp that I contribute is free. Some time later, my attention was drawn to the details of the GFDL. Anybody wishing to use the contents of a GFD is obliged to copy the cover sheets of the original. This restriction seems analogous to one that, say, allows functions to be used for decoding a compressed graphic but not for encoding one. What is the purpose of the GFDL? I quote from the licence: "The purpose of this License is to make a manual .... "free" in the sense of freedom: to assure everyone the effective freedom to copy and redistribute it, with or without modifying it, either commercially or noncommercially." Since the XEmacs team's freedom here is ineffective, the GFDL is, on its own terms, broken. I do not understand why the GFDL exists at all. It seems to me that the GPL is as adequate for manuals as it is for code. I also don't understand why the Emacs Manual's licence had to be changed - a prime effect of this change was to annul people's freedom to combine old bits of the manual with new bits. My feeling is that this is just not the way things should be in the free software community. Put bluntly, having made contributions to the Emacs manual, I feel duped. Yes, the GFDL conforms to the terms of the assignment papers I signed, but I don't think I should have to wave the small print past a lawyer before signing this sort of thing. Do I really want to make any more contributions to the Emacs manual? That's not just a rhetorical question. Richard, the GFDL is broken. Please get it fixed, in a way which will restore the XEmacs team's freedom to copy and modify the Emacs manual. -- Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)