From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding use-package to core Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 11:12:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: References: <87fsemjs7v.fsf@yahoo.com> Reply-To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10566"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "xenodasein--- viaEmacs development discussions." , eliz@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 15 01:33:19 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oujt8-0002Vy-LJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2022 01:33:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouiqQ-00033I-BX; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 18:26:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouigw-0007sA-96 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 18:16:38 -0500 Original-Received: from w4.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.165]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouWSE-0004q4-LE; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 05:12:40 -0500 Original-Received: from tutadb.w10.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.10]) by w4.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906CB10602D2; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 10:12:36 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1668420756; s=s1; d=tutanota.de; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=pgp5OAmKmex75u3iEeNuJ08MEUlXPzK0xBOqpIrt7sk=; b=dQq0fMRJZycWFnJyLQunptlMTfl/xtYXGYAKsENCUKjNSD5fmqkooT/L67GBuwV5 ABAAfkasDSrzpCEnKdYRNSID2IIkASHM2ayVc94NcuHYKaS4NapXuGoAKd43YZhnTWY pk9QkW74MeKnSs69N8HbEURiGCLVwu2OWe1I4JGaoDkG8ZpqhfD97eI1GZC1lRFPkt9 h5mmfcjWqqhdpQafpi78IXGud6INTe+1Lug/ZLxHpDbfR9//SnKHPA0Qf/s7gTY0qAu /bzoxuXEB7pOPQH9hlqCbNGeo3G/l0Z00O9dceBWpXv4u0Nuto1tLxJiY4wKly9q1QH xnRz/qffBQ== In-Reply-To: <87fsemjs7v.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.165; envelope-from=xenodasein@tutanota.de; helo=w4.tutanota.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299795 Archived-At: Nov 14, 2022, 00:27 by luangruo@yahoo.com: > xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." > writes: > > Why don't you?=C2=A0 This package has been very popular for a long time= and > > at least I haven't seen anyone complain about it not being in core. > > Whatever gets included seem to freeze in time and becomes very hard to > > make non-breaking changes > > First of all, this is untrue. I think we have always let whoever > happens to be maintaining a package in core decide which changes to > make, and that includes breaking ones. > > Secondly, not making breaking changes does not cause you to ``freeze in > time''. Something changes or it doesn't, I have no clue what you mean. > > and their writers probably get frustrated from that more easily and > > stop developing it. > > Any statistics? I invite you to think what would it be like anytime you mention something here the answer was any statistics, any statistics?=C2=A0 That this kind of funny to imagine. Anyway, 'statistics' in my head formed after looking through lisp files, how many of them there, and the fact that how few people are maintaining these, anyone can see this thanks to git.=C2=A0 Problem is over time commit= s to core packages keep making assumptions about each other's existence and that inter-dependency does not seem to encourage anyone to work on them, even their original writers.=C2=A0 Even you are in your own X corner and not touching that issue, except for nay-saying on this list. > > There's ever more lines of code and more packages, I don't think this > > direction is sustainable and I hope you will reconsider this approach > > of adding everything to core at some point. > > Personally, I hope that everything most people find useful will > eventually make its way into Emacs, because doing so is a direct > shortcut to making Emacs more useful for everyone. Yeah?=C2=A0 Who he is going to put in the cold hard work hours into maintaining all that?=C2=A0 Furthermore after certain complexity it is of no help even having numerous developers.=C2=A0 These are well documented and understood facts of software development and when someone keeps denying these things without substantial argument it displays blatant incompetence.=C2=A0 I don't see how bundling millions of lines of code together when there is already a system to distribute these as external packages is a shortcut to usefulness for everyone (what does that even mean?)=C2=A0 Anyone after some kind of shortcut to usefulness seem to simpl= y download VSCode and be done with it.