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Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding use-package to core Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 18:31:04 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: References: <87tu33cavl.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36810"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "xenodasein--- viaEmacs development discussions." , eliz@gnu.org To: Payas Relekar Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 13 18:31:46 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ouGpd-0009PN-RZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 18:31:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouGp6-000063-Mk; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 12:31:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouGp4-000050-RU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 12:31:11 -0500 Original-Received: from w4.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.165]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouGp1-0005oH-4b; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 12:31:10 -0500 Original-Received: from tutadb.w10.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.10]) by w4.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BF3106016D; Sun, 13 Nov 2022 17:31:04 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1668360664; s=s1; d=tutanota.de; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=wsQiMP7zjJ8hcynGfgu3qbhH7I9HdhhVKmao+VR0/3s=; b=zNnicnsqQLAJgqdNWRX2TByqwdK5ZzVywcCu4eXM+uNEio/liG/6zZopl7VcC0i3 XQLjT9v+TmOOo3JFaG9DwFogrDDIc4yxBwLGRz+rh1VZv7evYptSBXKHIIp8bbeTst7 er5FQwg/H/FoD7jnNm+RWBo1LFmUXMy38+EYhcjopaSwbrSJATJ5ROXwWWZSCt7VjuF 50/VLtUecabQuJFaE/6bONBDntdZ4tcwasLJhe3e48lk1OQTn9+ipPcE1fYVxCPz8Rf YZjwafoGdGUzowcljMfj2XldCq2FzbDYNwdvWPvtYFT9ngeOXGPastJlrFTfFL4UHBX kIl9+0vvyg== In-Reply-To: <87tu33cavl.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.165; envelope-from=xenodasein@tutanota.de; helo=w4.tutanota.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299731 Archived-At: Nov 13, 2022, 11:55 by relekarpayas@gmail.com: > While Eli can speak for maintainers' perspective, here's my personal > observations: > > It depends on package. Org-mode and modus-themes have only benefitted > from being included in core and their development pace has kept up if > not improved. Eglot progress may be harder to gauge, but at least in my > personal observation, it hasn't reduced. modus-themes is simply too good and deserves being a default theme IMO. How has org-mode have benefited from being in core?=C2=A0 My personal experience and observation from others is that it's users like too keep it relatively up to date, and installing a more recent version while there is also a built-in one is, confusing and error-prone. eglot is a special case, it is more or less the primary function of a code editor these days and should get even more attention until it isn't the 'thing.' > As for use-package, > 1. The package has been stable and working without many complaints for a > lot of people (myself included) for a long time. For all intents and > purposes it can be declared "done" (a.k.a. frozen) and not many will > complain. It's GH page seems to have quite a bit of issues, and I had my frustration with it because of it's poor handling of custom settings, I think there is a lot of room for improvement and there is no need for urgency. > 2. John has already mentioned that he is willing to hand-over maintains > to whoever steps up to the job, and if they want to do it in core, > that's how it will be. He has also mentioned that he doesn't have > sufficient bandwidth to spend on future development of use-package hence > the former statement. Okay, who has taken up this task for the foreseeable future? It's GH page says otherwise.=C2=A0 Plus, it's author having stopped working on it is not a great argument either. > 3. Considering the adoption of use-package in wider Emacs user base, I'd > say it is already near impossible to make breaking changes. Moving to > core only makes that process more formal with decade long deprecation > policy. There is always oversights when it comes to volunteer software, why risk it when it worked perfectly thus far being an Elpa package? > 4. If you need someone to complain about use-package not being in core, > you can count this mail as first. When I started out with Emacs in 2020, > use-package was already recommended way in half the packages I found, > and installing it required adding MELPA. Depending on where you stand > with technical and ethical grounds, this is already not ideal. Less > elisp needed to be understood by newbies (even if one-line MELPA > addition) the better. IIUC it is in Elpa, so this problem is solved now?=C2=A0 If not, then keep = it in Elpa.=C2=A0 Having it in core is going to improve what exactly?=C2=A0 It= is kind of a flavor pack. > 5. While as a developer I agree that more code means more maintenance > burden, we are not here to reduce development burden. Only code that is > maintenance free is one that is never written, after all. However, Emacs > is there to serve the needs of users. IME declarative configuration that > use-package provides is so clearly superior to current imperative > manner that it is worth adding more code, especially if this new code is > as battle tested as use-package is. IMO declarative macros are a lot more opaque and comes with other unnecessary hurdles, so let's not call these preferences superior. I admit it is easier to copy paste declarative configs when one has little experience with Emacs, but this is yet another band-aid by itself. > 6. As for your last point, Emacs is not Python. One of the things I > really really like about Emacs is, even if I never install a single > package, the stock setup gives me a LOT of stuff built-in. While my > personal Emacs is riced to the brim, at work I use plain Emacs with very > very little customization (11 lines in init.el) and it does the job. > > Perhaps these points can change your point of opinion. Feel free to > correct wherever necessary. This is all the more confusing to me; the point of use-package is to make the usage of packages you install from wherever easier.=C2=A0 So if someone is installing packages anyway, then they first install use-package if that is the route they want.=C2=A0 You say you are also fine with using the source code editing facilities already existing in Emacs, I agree that those should come out of box and have priority (as long as the maintenance burden isn't too much for the maintainers.) However, use-package is not that, it is all about installing things so let it get installed if that is the preference someone takes.=C2=A0 Why for= ce it on everyone when there is no benefit?=C2=A0 Better to focus effort on editing oriented, relatively un-opinionated stuff in the core used by everyone as well as you (like simple.el, python-mode) instead. > Thanks, > Payas Thanks