From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Development Speed Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 20:53:10 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: References: <83r1a4yfpt.fsf@gnu.org> <8335mky4rl.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21422"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org To: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 23 20:54:23 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n0UAQ-0005NP-TA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 20:54:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46812 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n0UAP-0003I9-Qe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:54:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49606) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n0U9L-0002bd-BD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:53:15 -0500 Original-Received: from w4.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.165]:52230) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n0U9I-0000IT-Lp; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:53:14 -0500 Original-Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w4.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6F210602EB; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 19:53:10 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1640289190; s=s1; d=tutanota.de; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=tGHu29SMb+oySaPBFPCUuJFFg61gsqOadp/beTq4Hgo=; b=NLOpCytdxT1h32UtsF8om0xWyhJc/zZUqMrY/wNEVY8oiatgxY/zzZZ8O5K8aF/x nCx5jhrDr8bvc5e5pN1K1c9cwgu8oRZHCxxnpMYGUWCINZe6Nuji9tsjmmd/rF9oHUe Hvfasyd8Ef86dZ0DVByUTUU90VWbPNN6rW2dbQPbBzCtZZYIAcli7BYmqr+zuICHcah muMsyyZKwPnp25fOH3bu/iTC91Rinxgauu0Z1kzySPBvHzQ6kaKIIfBkeSClyNmQx2d hrHkWCALHr7PASa8vIUmGntxWf3aZhzLKFiX6LhjaJLQivjd5ZZ7vC5NxRjoin+F2Pl jNHwDjrPlQ== In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.165; envelope-from=xenodasein@tutanota.de; helo=w4.tutanota.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283026 Archived-At: Quoting: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-12/msg02433.ht= ml From: Stefan Monnier > I'd be surprised if the compliance (or not) of Emacs's C code with > specific versions of the C standard would make any difference to > a newcomer. > If you describe a concrete problem linked to being "not C17 compliant", > then maybe we can start thinking about a plan. I had heard of studies showing how most bugs in important C software were resulting from UBs, i.e. having wrong assumptions on what you write; and it is exacerbated the less standard compliant the code is.=C2=A0 Hell, didn't they invent Rust just to avoid these issues?=C2=A0 Keeping current is something like switching to Rust in this case.=C2=A0 This and some other things mentioned on the thread seem concrete issues to me, even if it they are very small in Emacs' hierarchy of problems, so no rush. > But so far all I've seen > is "compliance for its own sake". Even when it made zero technical improvements, it would make soft improvements especially for future. > ... - The cruft accumulated over the years. ... Language would help with this, I think. > I don't even know of any single place where we're not "C17 compliant". I'm confused, does this mean it is possible to fully build Emacs with "-std=3Dc17"? > The difficulty in our C code comes from various aspects, none of which > have much to do with the C language itself: ... > ... > Over the years, we've managed to reduce the use of macros ... I appreciate this detailed information, thanks for your time. I better save it for possible future use in documentation.