From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: feedback on customize -- apropos-groups et al Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:31:16 -0700 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1097350332 576 80.91.229.6 (9 Oct 2004 19:32:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 19:32:12 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 09 21:32:00 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CGMwh-0004gq-00 for ; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 21:31:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CGN3Y-0006Z5-Ip for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:39:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CGN3R-0006Ys-OO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CGN3R-0006Yg-8V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CGN3R-0006Yd-5f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.231] (helo=agminet04.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1CGMwC-0007V9-2n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:31:28 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.10]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i99JVQkr026395 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 2004 12:31:26 -0700 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i99JVQFQ001921 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:31:26 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw2-141-144-80-26.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.80.26]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id i99JVQq5001911 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:31:26 -0600 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:28154 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:28154 Here is some feedback from a customize newbie. Forgive me if some of the requested enhancements already exist in some form. I haven't found them, so perhaps they need to be made more noticeable in that case. Customize is _good_, for several reasons, including: - structured, hierarchial organization, with corresponding navigation - centralized, one-stop shopping for editing and inspecting options - types, to control option values I especially appreciate the last one. There are no doubt other important advantages to customize. What I _don't_ like about customize, perhaps only partly because I haven't spent enough time with it, is this: I get bogged down, sometimes even lost, navigating, and I can't always quickly find what I'm looking for. It's sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees. Suggestions -- 1. Users may get to a customize buffer before having read the Emacs manual section on customize. It would be useful to put a small "Help" link to that manual section at the top of each customize buffer. The mode-line link to the mode description does not help much -- the description of custom-mode is _skimpy_, and does not really describe the mode in a way that helps you use it. Users need to be guided to _Info_. `C-h m' gives 253 lines of stuff (!) that is mostly about mostly irrelevant minor modes like auto-compression. The info on custom-mode itself is essentially 11 lines of key-binding descriptions -- keys that do only what the UI buttons do. So, `C-h m' gives no more information about the customize buffer than what you see in the buffer already. I'm not saying that `C-h m' should do what Info does; I'm saying that if it is to do anything useful at all, it should at least guide you to Info. [BTW, Wouldn't it be a good idea in general to have a link from `C-h m' help sections (at least the major mode section) to the corresponding Info manual sections, if any?] [BTW2, I think there was some discussion about removing all minor-mode stuff to different pages (accessible from links). I support that, and custom-mode is a good example of the problem.] 2. By way of analogy, here's what I typically do to find and modify a variable: a. apropos, to find appropriate variables -- this can include different members of the apropos family, such as searching doc strings b. describe-variable c. set-variable (or setq...), or click link in *Help* to go to customize This is usually very _quick_. If I don't find what I'm looking for by searching (apropos) for "enlarge", I try "increase", "grow", "expand" etc. How do I find information about customize groups? How do I find information about the organization of customize itself? - Analogous to (a), it would be helpful to have an `apropos-groups' command that would let you see which groups match the apropos string, with a brief description of each. Likewise, for a command that looks for group names in doc strings. - Analogous to (b), there is no `describe-group' command, but if there were it would provide the same info provided by the customize buffer for the group. So, it could help to have such a command that just took you to the group's customize buffer. - An overall _Table of Contents_ for customize would also be useful. Navigating the customize tree is OK, but it isn't the best way to get the big picture -- too tedious and too much like looking at a landscape through a tube. - An _Index_ for customize would be very helpful: groups, variables, everything important in the realm of customize. 3. I don't know the policy on accessibility or platform compatibility, but I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to have a version of the Info section on customize that reflects the UI on a window system? Even if the UI is different on different window systems, it would still be easier to follow one of them than the text-only version. We would of course still also need a text-only version for using Info without a window system. I'm guessing that Texinfo would allow this kind of single-sourcing, to produce different Info versions. 4. As to customize itself, it would be clearer if buttons that acted only as links looked like links. Buttons should be reserved for real _actions_. Too many buttons(!) -- most of which are not. Also, instead of having this: Picture group: [Go to Group] just get rid of the button and put a link on the text "Picture group". With simple changes like these, the buffer will not be so cluttered and overwhelming. Currently, it looks like the control center for a nuclear reactor; all that's missing are buttons that start to flash yellow and red. ;-) HTH, Drew