From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: excalamus--- via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: (emacs) Intro [was: Making Emacs popular again with a video] Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 20:18:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: <779cc2b0-c546-2a80-afd3-79f10bda1b7e@yandex.ru> Reply-To: excalamus@tutanota.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="118899"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs Devel To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 21 20:19:14 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbpmk-000Unk-Ti for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 May 2020 20:19:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39758 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbpmj-0001o1-VE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 May 2020 14:19:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60556) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbpmB-0000yA-Jv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 May 2020 14:18:39 -0400 Original-Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:57512) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jbpm9-0000bw-11 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 May 2020 14:18:39 -0400 Original-Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1FDFA0313; Thu, 21 May 2020 18:18:32 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1590085112; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=CwYRS2ZsZbFKgg/5uQ7/4JgidTC/Kz0eD4Ktu2DRV8M=; b=C7b5m0G7Oqf+YyGA7GY0ytIDGtkBlgxxQXwtlNhU3z6U5kHe1eIk/1aDPs4STG0t QbVZaaWillEB5N63UQSyWmZ7Hbz6N3hNRhwPfV+k5iKljiT2g7a4RFfcE+X6NhdLywy 3UfHeYciCT2FMHVOOXikfXnyeKSux3LwPomfczL81uir2V881IV/CrSX9vnSejQLBEI fDdUG8x9ZNa32aXs+KB0WXC6p/bi63CnVGBx0h0Z0ce/Dw9gj4dqS2ZHfeK+qJfPHpx 0a9nOjB9i28tYLCJUU4hoMj8tpHHT4v6TH6yD1dYj0QZ+X/95J3NdJrXav38jeWbvUW GWvANiuvBQ== In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.162; envelope-from=excalamus@tutanota.com; helo=w1.tutanota.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/21 14:18:32 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251179 Archived-At: Resending in order to add to the public archives.=C2=A0 Apologies for the e= xtra messages! May 20, 2020, 12:58 by excalamus@tutanota.com: > > May 19, 2020, 13:26 by drew.adams@oracle.com: > >>> Is this something I should continue investing time in? >>> >> >> IMO, yes, please do. Why not? It will be fun for >> you (and us) anyway, regardless of the outcome. >> > I agree it's fun and I'm glad you've joined in!=C2=A0 I meant as opposed = to pursuing something like this: > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs= -devel/2019-12/msg00206.html > > >> 1. Command, not just function. >> > Thank you for this!=C2=A0 The difficulty with this section is separating = the jargon from the expression of the idea.=C2=A0 (The idea being, "each ke= y calls a tiny program (or macro)".=C2=A0 Macro is clearly jargon and extre= mely ambiguous at that (e.g. lisp macro, Excel VBA macro, C macro, keyboard= macro, etc.).=C2=A0 "Function" is more accurate, but also jargon.=C2=A0 "C= ommand" is a term I had not considered.=C2=A0=20 > > >> > What *defines* an Emacs? Is it "the Emacs idea", as I've called it, th= at each key press is=20 >> > transparently associated with a function? >> >> 2. Why do you say "transparently" here? >> > By transparent, I mean that it is easy for a user to see "the Emacs idea"= (i.e. "each key calls a tiny program (or macro)").=C2=A0 The Idea is made = transparent through C-h k: > > 1. C-h k opens *Help* which states, " runs a command which is a = function" > 2. There is a link to the function definition, previous-line > > That's what I mean by "transparent".=C2=A0=20 > > The more it's discussed, I think it's the functionality of C-h is specifi= cally what *defines*, in practical terms, an "Emacs".=C2=A0 I think it woul= d be helpful to explain this to non-programmers along with *why the Idea is= important and powerful*.=C2=A0 Other editors undoubtedly call a function w= hen "", or a button on the UI, is pressed; it's software, so it has to = work that way at some level.=C2=A0 However, an "Emacs" grants users visibil= ity and access behind the curtains.=C2=A0 Aside from this transparency exis= ting, I don't think it's necessarily seen as a virtue.=C2=A0 On the contra= ry, I think it's viewed as irrelevant; the sentiment is "I don't care if I = can disassemble my John Deere engine, I have seeds to plant right now.=C2= =A0 How does this help me do that?" > > >