From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: excalamus--- via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 23:02:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> Reply-To: excalamus@tutanota.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11472_41351878.1589403763530" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="34497"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs Devel , Richard Stallman , Nathan Colinet , Andreas Roehler To: Karl Fogel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 13 23:04:09 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYyXv-0008pk-Q7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 23:04:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39530 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYyXu-0000UM-Qb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 17:04:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57658) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYyWh-0007aY-W9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 17:02:52 -0400 Original-Received: from w1.tutanota.de ([81.3.6.162]:42358) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYyWe-0004IK-Ff; Wed, 13 May 2020 17:02:51 -0400 Original-Received: from w3.tutanota.de (unknown [192.168.1.164]) by w1.tutanota.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8578AFA031C; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:02:43 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1589403763; s=s1; d=tutanota.com; h=From:From:To:To:Subject:Subject:Content-Description:Content-ID:Content-Type:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Cc:Date:Date:In-Reply-To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Message-ID:Reply-To:References:References:Sender; bh=mPQlVhCyW5kJIVYmoH0gJrJJBUll5qTTCSjFenDdCxg=; b=q5RbhogbhhM3vHL05qEMl1xfB7TNPhCwt/BFqZqITufCuGfsSy4MOAPfpl6IGf1e u+nsuk2xx8CUb5R3N1lYPsAj9SP2UfIBsGerKcOOI0diKof+Iuvgt0ZnuXdyBOcP6MK 43WtXjzmjzBHy/H7vBnQoiYYlXjUutzmIBLy0IKaZHArsFqI/p1rcbLKlQgud0s6tVw ImBHGupeicn/FZVNeunjXFxWGm53ldXOieNXHJYmVY4t78npMxbO/lYxy9oZIKXf8WQ YtFnpDpEyRq09PrgS1t6GqcZSqPnlnuSlChlppiDzeF6dZBNDApY+y34gc6Gqvemvqh vvv+sN3foA== In-Reply-To: <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.3.6.162; envelope-from=excalamus@tutanota.com; helo=w1.tutanota.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/13 17:02:43 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250163 Archived-At: ------=_Part_11472_41351878.1589403763530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May 13, 2020, 12:18 by kfogel@red-bean.com: > Sure, I'll take the bait: > Thank you for your thoughts!=C2=A0 Apologies if it appeared like I was tryi= ng to trap anyone or pick an argument.=C2=A0 My intention was to ask someth= ing like, "What does Emacs do well and how might we apply that strength mor= e effectively?".=C2=A0 In that sense, it was more like a runner trying to b= est last week's time rather than trying to arrive first at the finish line.= =C2=A0 But I also wasn't sure if there was a specific finish line in mind (= singular, plural, fixed, or movable). > Thus, instead of focusing on making Emacs easier for new users, it would = be better to focus on smoothing out discontinuities in Emacs' investment-re= ward curve. The long-term health of Emacs as a project will not come from = a large number of lightly committed users who don't appreciate what makes E= macs unique, but rather from a smaller number of users for whom Emacs is im= portant and irreplaceable. > I like the idea of "focus on smoothing out discontinuities in Emacs' invest= ment-reward curve."=C2=A0 I think there be taters there. What makes GNU Emacs unique?=C2=A0 After all, there's ITS Emacs, Gosling Em= acs, XEmacs, and DrRacket (at least).=20 Here's how I think Emacs, if not GNU Emacs, is unique: Emacs is an editor with a heart and a soul.=C2=A0 Its beats to a rhythm of = compile,=C2=A0eval, garbage collect, transforming code into action.=C2=A0 = It performs the raw mechanical functions an application needs to do.=C2=A0 = But it also has an intangible quality aficionados recognize.=C2=A0 Like a s= oul, it's difficult to explain and you probably feel silly trying to.=C2=A0= I think being able to explain that to people would be a tremendous advanta= ge. I came to Emacs from the mundane need to track work hours (achieved with Or= g mode).=C2=A0 Emacs' ability to introspect, the marvelous "Introduction to= Programming in Emacs Lisp", and it's unique ability for the user to Choose= Your Own Programming Adventure led me to Free Software and to change my ca= reer to software development.=C2=A0 It changed my life, or at least the way= I look at it.=C2=A0 I don't think other editors, or even other GNU project= s, exist in a realm where that kind of thing is possible. =C2=A0 It seems t= o me that Emacs is unique because it occupies a unique space between user a= nd creator.=C2=A0 If that's so, are there ways we might exploit that? Education is one investment-reward domain.=C2=A0 In what other domains migh= t Emacs be well poised?=C2=A0=20 ------=_Part_11472_41351878.1589403763530 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May 13, 2020, 12:18 by kfogel@red-bean.com:
Sure, I'll take the bait:
Thank you for your thoughts!  Apologies if it appeared like I = was trying to trap anyone or pick an argument.  My intention was to as= k something like, "What does Emacs do well and how might we apply that stre= ngth more effectively?".  In that sense, it was more like a runner try= ing to best last week's time rather than trying to arrive first at the fini= sh line.  But I also wasn't sure if there was a specific finish line i= n mind (singular, plural, fixed, or movable).
Thus, instead of focusing on making Emacs easier= for new users, it would be better to focus on smoothing out discontinuitie= s in Emacs' investment-reward curve. The long-term health of Emacs as a pr= oject will not come from a large number of lightly committed users who don'= t appreciate what makes Emacs unique, but rather from a smaller number of u= sers for whom Emacs is important and irreplaceable.
<= div>
I like the idea of "focus on smoothing out discontinuities in= Emacs' investment-reward curve."  I think there be taters there.
<= /div>

What makes GNU Emacs unique?  After all, ther= e's ITS Emacs, Gosling Emacs, XEmacs, and DrRacket (at least).

Here's how I think Emacs, if not GNU Emacs, is unique:

Emacs is an editor with a heart and a soul. = ; Its beats to a rhythm of compile, eval, garbage collect, transformi= ng code into action.  It performs the raw mechanical functions an appl= ication needs to do.  But it also has an intangible quality aficionado= s recognize.  Like a soul, it's difficult to explain and you probably = feel silly trying to.  I think being able to explain that to people wo= uld be a tremendous advantage.

I c= ame to Emacs from the mundane need to track work hours (achieved with Org m= ode).  Emacs' ability to introspect, the marvelous "Introduction to Pr= ogramming in Emacs Lisp", and it's unique ability for the user to Choose Yo= ur Own Programming Adventure led me to Free Software and to change my caree= r to software development.  It changed my life, or at least the way I = look at it.  I don't think other editors, or even other GNU projects, = exist in a realm where that kind of thing is possible.   It seems to m= e that Emacs is unique because it occupies a unique space between user and = creator.  If that's so, are there ways we might exploit that?

Education is one investment-reward domain.  In wh= at other domains might Emacs be well poised? 
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