From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: `set-variable' should use :set Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:13:08 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87d3r3qd44.fsf@catnip.gol.com><871v7jqchc.fsf@catnip.gol.com><033D7FA139144B03B1370B9E9C1113ED@us.oracle.com><87bp6nklx2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp><823F3463F14A490A90A6075368296AC2@us.oracle.com><4EEEE63344BB4696B708EE3C3A8BE349@us.oracle.com> <87vd4tjyz0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1287850484 6478 80.91.229.12 (23 Oct 2010 16:14:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:14:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Emacs-Devel devel' , 'Miles Bader' To: "'Stephen J. Turnbull'" , "'Juanma Barranquero'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 23 18:14:43 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1P9gjy-0001j8-7z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 18:14:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32979 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1P9gjx-00069v-Fy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:14:41 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=44074 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1P9gjr-00069i-0K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:14:36 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P9gjo-0003Te-BB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:14:34 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:39476) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P9gjl-0003Re-Fy; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 12:14:29 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o9NGEN11004803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:14:24 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o9NErGIk023931; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:14:23 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt019.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 709717151287850392; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:13:12 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.73) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:13:11 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87vd4tjyz0.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Thread-Index: ActybV7wBiZxndmXTS+ipTsy7NiCgwAWYMbg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:132022 Archived-At: > > > quite clear as far as it goes (it doesn't say why or how). > > > > I find it quite clear too. > > Clear, yes. I personally think it's ugly and awkward, the kind of > usage a tasteless engineer[1] would invent. I would hope that Emacs > aspires to a higher, more literary standard. Good to hear. Patch welcome. ;-) (But higher yes, more literary, no. It's not about being literary - depending on what is meant by that term. No, don't bother to send dictionary citations. ;-)) > That's why I suggested Drew contribute a patch Ditto. Your patch is welcome, to raise Emacs to a higher standard. But it seems we both prefer, at least in some such trivial cases, to teach fishing rather than grab the pole and pull an already caught fish on board. I placed the fish firmly on the hook this time. It's really not difficult to reel it in. What's missing is the will to do so, which apparently depends on agreement that this fish is a worthy one. Or even a that it is truly a fish! Submitting patches does no more good here than pointing out clearly what is wrong. Believe me (or not). > I don't think that clarity is sufficiently important that we should > say "if it's clear, ship it." Precision in natural language is as > important as precision in formal languages. Clarity goes hand in hand with preciseness (and completeness and correctness...), but yes, there are degrees. We agree about their importance, I believe. Clarity is about understanding, but understanding something that was not expressed precisely can mean misunderstanding what was meant. > But a superior application will have elegant docs, which the user will > appreciate far more than elegant code. (Of course neither holds a > candle to elegant UI.) Agreed again. Elegant UI can reduce or even eliminate the need for docs, elegant or otherwise. And BTW, "UI" here includes APIs (e.g. names of packages, routines, and parameters), for users who are developers. But we are now far afield of "`set-variable' should use :set". It should, BTW. ;-)