From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Customize buttons that change user'scustomfileshouldaskforconfirmation Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:20:23 -0800 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1108234048 16818 80.91.229.2 (12 Feb 2005 18:47:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:47:28 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 12 19:47:28 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D02Ib-00034s-Qx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:47:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D02Xn-0007ff-CS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:03:03 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1D02Uq-0006B4-MC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:00:01 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1D02Uo-0006AN-KV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:59:59 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D02Rn-0005AE-Dj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:56:51 -0500 Original-Received: from [148.87.122.32] (helo=rgminet03.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1D01tZ-0006mf-Uf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:21:30 -0500 Original-Received: from rgminet03.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j1CILQJU028236; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:21:26 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.50]) by rgminet03.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j1CIKTIQ027641; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:20:44 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1CIKSuj030406; Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:20:28 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-81-21.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.81.21]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j1CIKP4J030369 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:20:27 -0700 Original-To: , X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:33303 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:33303 The key is to satisfy both novices and experts.... Provide a good default interface for novices and also a way for that novice to become an expert without too much trouble.... That is why Customize should not only do its job, but make it easy for a person to learn. I don't agree with some of the detailed proposals you've made - for example, I agree with Kim that your history-of-values display would be overkill and confusing. However, I do agree that Customize should do these things, in order of priority: 1. "Do its job", as you put it: - make it easy for anyone, including a non-Lisper, to customize options - provide an easy-to-use options browser 2. Facilitate learning more about Emacs - Lisp, in particular. #1 is far more important than #2. #2 should never interfere with #1. In particular, the UI should not be made more complex in order to promote #2. But Customize should not act as an obstacle to understanding what's under the hood - it should facilitate that learning, but not require it or impose it. Your analogy with menu items that show corresponding key sequences is a good one. Simple information bridges like that help users be more effective. As I mentioned long ago, I think that simple links in Customize to a) the current Lisp value of an option and b) the defining source code, as are available in `C-h v', would be unobtrusive and quite helpful.