From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Eliminating "changed in Emacs outside of Customize" Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:58:05 -0800 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1107284510 26071 80.91.229.2 (1 Feb 2005 19:01:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:01:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 01 20:01:49 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw3Gn-0005tJ-9r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:01:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw3Tk-00073s-Ks for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:14:24 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw3TR-00071s-PR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:14:05 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw3TP-00070v-Rh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:14:04 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw3TP-00070s-OP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:14:03 -0500 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.231] (helo=agminet04.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1Cw3E8-0006Qm-Sq; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:58:17 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet04.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j11IwBh1000677; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:58:11 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.50]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j11Iw9VV000635; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:58:10 -0800 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j11Iw9Uj010716; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:58:09 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-whq-csvpn-gw3-141-144-81-59.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.81.59]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j11Iw7LX010703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:58:08 -0700 Original-To: "Per Abrahamsen" , X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:32714 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:32714 I didn't think that we wanted to get into such discussions at this time. I was intending to bring up this question only after the release. But as long as people are discussing it, maybe we can decide to look into the _question_ a little, to understand the current design better, without going any further now. I know that I don't understand the rationale behind this separation inside/outside customize, and if I did I might be able to stop thinking about trying to "improve" on it ;-). IOW, I really don't understand it, and I really want to. Why? Because if such a distinction were not really needed, then I think it would be clearer for users to just have any change (regardless of where/how) be treated as "setting" the user option. Was this unclear: If you .emacs, or some third party code you activate from ".emacs", contains "(setq foo 42)" and you change and save "foo" from customize, you changes to the variable through customize will be overwritten next time you start Emacs. Yes, it's unclear to me. Or, rather, it seems clear to me, but I think I must be misunderstanding it, because I don't see the problem. Does this action sequence correspond to what you mean? 1. Put (setq baud-rate 28400) in an otherwise empty .emacs. 2. Start emacs and customize baud-rate. The value shows as 28400 "changed outside". Change it to 56000 and save it. The setq appears before the custom-set-variable in your .emacs, so nothing is overwritten (that I can see). If you restart emacs and customize baud-rate, the value is 56000 "set and saved". Is there a pb I'm missing here? Perhaps you meant executing a setq _after_ the custom-set-variable (e.g. in a library you load after the .emacs is loaded). If so: 1. Move the setq after the custom-set-variable in your .emacs. 2. Restart emacs and customize baud-rate. The value shows as 28400 "changed outside". 3. Click "reset to saved". The value is 56000 "set and saved". Something has changed the value after you loaded the saved value, but I still don't see any problem. The customize state reflects that perfectly. Of course, that is with the current system. You are saying that there _would_ be a problem _if_ we treated "changed outside customize" as simply "set". I don't understand how that would make any difference in this scenario (action sequence above), besides indicating "set" to the user instead of "changed outside customize" (which I think would be preferable). So I'm guessing that I have misunderstood you. If the action sequence above is not what you meant, what is? Thanks, Drew