From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: finger-pointer curser as default for mouse-face text Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:29:55 -0700 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1098898256 15724 80.91.229.6 (27 Oct 2004 17:30:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:30:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Kim F. Storm" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 27 19:30:32 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CMrd2-0004xd-00 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:30:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMrkm-00073i-6h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:38:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CMrkd-00073X-Ue for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:38:24 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CMrkd-00073A-4n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:38:23 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMrkd-000730-0y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:38:23 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.229] (helo=agminet02.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1CMrca-0000AA-Vr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:30:05 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.10]) by agminet02.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i9RHTuA0018746; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:29:56 -0700 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i9RHTutq031470; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:29:56 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dradams-lap.us.oracle.com [130.35.177.126]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id i9RHTtcx031460; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:29:56 -0600 Original-To: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:29065 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:29065 -----Original Message-----From: Kim F. Storm document the current "standard" behaviour, and then add a section at an appropriate place which says something like: Whenever you can click with mouse-2 to follow a link, you may also be able to follow the link by a double click or a short click with mouse-1. The actual mouse-1 action that you need to follow a link is controlled by the user option mouse-1-click-follows-link. mouse-1 click to follow links or click action buttons, if available, should become the _standard_ behavior. Instead of introducing mouse-2 as the standard behavior, and then saying that mouse-1 "may also be" usable as an alternative in many contexts, we should just introduce mouse-1 clicking (or not bother to introduce it at all! - the closer Emacs behavior is to what users are used to, the less explanation we need). We should not mention mouse-2 in this context. What about mouse-2? If mouse-1 clicking follows links, there is no reason for mouse-2 to duplicate this behavior. I think Kim has (for now) left mouse-2 as an alternative to mouse-1 in his patch: both do the same thing wrt links. I would prefer that we adopt mouse-1 and drop mouse-2 (except as an optional replacement for mouse-1 -- one or the other; not both). Let users (or future Emacs versions) use mouse-2 for something else in this context - by default, it should probably be `mouse-yank-at-click' in most contexts. Any other, optional (customizable) behavior besides mouse-1-click-to-follow-a-link should be described in a way that does not confuse new users into thinking that they need to wrestle with such customization. IOW, we need to make it clear when we're documenting customization (optional behavior). For the (new) standard mouse-1 behavior, we should just speak of "click", not "short click". Documentation of any "long click" behavior needs to be separated, so users see clearly that they don't _need_ to understand it just to be able to "point and shoot". IOW, let's separate out the esoteric stuff from the main message: click mouse-1 to follow a link or use an action button. One problem is the tooltips which say "click mouse-2 to ...". To fix that requires that we change all places where the tooltips are created (unless there is some place we can put in a clever rewrite of the message). Such messages should ideally be constructed based on dynamic key bindings, so that they would automatically reflect the appropriate behavior. Isn't it possible to use, say, `substitute-command-keys' here?