From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Changed outside --> set, in Customize UI Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:37:45 -0800 Message-ID: References: <200502080315.j183F6V07652@raven.dms.auburn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1107902611 7661 80.91.229.2 (8 Feb 2005 22:43:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 22:43:31 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 08 23:43:31 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Cye4c-0004Ac-25 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 23:43:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyeEw-0002E8-UW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:53:50 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CyeEg-0002BB-Tk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:53:35 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CyeEV-00024X-Qd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:53:29 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CyeEV-00022x-Le for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:53:23 -0500 Original-Received: from [148.87.122.33] (helo=rgminet04.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1CydzY-00058E-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:37:56 -0500 Original-Received: from rgminet04.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j18MbivQ007753; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:37:45 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.50]) by rgminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.6/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id j18KbnrN002875; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 15:42:06 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j18KbnRv028040; Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:37:49 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap (dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-66-208.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.66.208]) by rgmsgw301.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with SMTP id j18Kblwi027980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:37:48 -0700 Original-To: "Luc Teirlinck" , X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200502080315.j183F6V07652@raven.dms.auburn.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:33101 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:33101 How about an argument justifying the distinction, to stave off Occam and his nasty razor? I gave several arguments. I meant arguments about the desirability in the UI of "outside" + "inside" vs just changed". I haven't seen those arguments. I saw problems pointed out that already exist today. They cannot, therefore, be related to the proposed UI change, unless the problems are seen to be exacerbated by the UI change. You did argue that the current warning serves to protect from the pbs, which is a valid point (that I disagree with). so, yes, the bugs need to be fixed. But we can not hurry and try to fix all of them for 22, because that would nearly guarantee that we would be introducing more bugs than we would fix. Agree 100%. And the proposed UI change "changed outside" -> "set" wouldn't be for 22.1 either. At a minimum, this preference could, well, itself be treated as a user preference, that is, a user option. I do not believe that it would make sense to introduce an option for one single release (or *maybe* two should 23 be released very soon after 22). Do you mean that if all the bugs are fixed you will no longer prefer "outside" + "inside", that you will prefer just "changed" (set)? If so, then there is no need (for you) for a user preference here. If not, then why would this be limited to 1-2 releases? After we change the Custom interface to get rid of the various bugs I described, the user will probably not be able any more to even _try_ to undo an `add-hook' in his .emacs through Custom (which would not work anyway). He would see the added hook in the Custom buffer but it would appear as being "untouchable". He would have to remove the `add-hook' from his .emacs. That is the only way that works anyway. The _illusion_ of being able to do it from the Custom buffer would no longer be there. Good (IIUC). ..._Not_ for 22, however. *Much* too late in the game. Agreed 100%. We really need to devote some time to discussing possible changes in depth. Customize has great potential, but it needs some work, too. It would be good to get solid agreement (consensus) on what we want to do wrt the user interface and wrt the implementation. Also, Per is a key player in the Customize design and implementation, and he has no time to participate in discussion now. Besides perhaps fixing some of the bugs, there is no reason to hurry any changes to Customize; it's better to take our time and get it right.