From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: dash.el [was: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs] Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 02:19:56 +0900 Message-ID: References: <83blmubfsf.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="32550"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Monnier , joostkremers@fastmail.fm, rms@gnu.org, Emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 11 19:21:19 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYC7D-0008Li-8b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 19:21:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44636 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYC7C-0005Mu-5q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 13:21:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33804) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYC5y-0003dQ-Ms for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 13:20:02 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztdg10012101.me.com ([17.58.6.49]:45010) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYC5x-0003LJ-7M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 13:20:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1589217599; bh=Bfw/ik8iPEGbdHlDhSgNtMdEvCYXxjxz/F635WgNC1g=; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Date:Message-Id:To; b=IHHtlUz1YmBUgY9PMGSn7vg3qs91iN9imN4NbpLVRzxVDK7VFaw/75TC7C6agdCkQ Il/ivZeRapYB4FDbZSRTLKj5H+sqCvG7wq++tcRVeRdgXy15O4O2f6NUHKVg9oDoFS /EdZ75GI3I2OVcj00Cyw7uBqZesqqC5SBZL19BsVfM4MtFGj9FVJb5p4Nm71+eKkio kyY0OLa7qUgGdQHw2+pPJlNDIvoGBIUMwrdok3isPJZxsdWz23EhLfIa8oNszWGH8h 9v2DJEqoAewr5IrPynnGmcAab46vCqn5gqmxD9kLybGuFD/xhNfxa99cKK4RGBsDAH qjwnH1hu3F4sA== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by pv50p00im-ztdg10012101.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4AAE18405ED; Mon, 11 May 2020 17:19:59 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <83blmubfsf.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17E262) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-11_08:2020-05-11, 2020-05-11 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2005110136 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.49; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-ztdg10012101.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/11 13:20:00 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Spam_score_int: -5 X-Spam_score: -0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, KHOP_DYNAMIC=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249837 Archived-At: > 2020. 5. 12. =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 1:26, Eli Zaretskii =EC=9E=91= =EC=84=B1: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> From: Stefan Monnier >> Cc: Philippe Vaucher , >> joostkremers@fastmail.fm, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 10:11:00 -0400 >>=20 >>> I as a Emacs user would think s.el is a bad addition to ELPA -- it >>> doesn't add anything special, >>=20 >> It is used by hundreds of packages. So as long as it's not in GNU ELPA, >> none of those hundreds of packages can be even considered for inclusion >> into GNU ELPA. >>=20 >> That's the special that it adds. >=20 > So we are going to add s.el because it is used by hundreds of > packages. And then we will add some of those hundreds, and then we > will add some more packages that use those other packages. And so on > and so forth. >=20 > But to what end, may I ask? Those packages already exist and are > available from MELPA, people are already using them, and installing a > package from MELPA is no more effort than from ELPA. So what is the > purpose of adding them to ELPA as well, if all we are going to do is > mimic the same procedures and requirements as MELPA? >=20 > GNU ELPA is (or was?) supposed to be an extension of Emacs. Being an > extension means the packages need to undergo almost the same quality > control as the code in core. Deferring such quality control to some > imaginary future means simply that we decide not to do that: how can > we seriously expect that the package authors will agree to changes to > which they don't agree today, especially after so much time has passed > and so many other ELPA packages already depend on them? Those > requirements are not arbitrary, they are supposed to keep Emacs easier > to use, develop, and maintain. By waiving those requirements today we > in fact waive our ability to decide later whether or not to include a > package in Emacs. By that we actually remove the main, if not the > only, reason to have ELPA at all. Looks like everybody has a different idea of ELPA is. I personally viewed it= as a blessed package repo, nothing that different from MELPA except that it= =E2=80=99s the default, official one from Emacs. In that case, I want these p= ackages in ELPA because I want my friend to try out rjsx-mode (which AFAIK i= s only in MELPA) by M-x package-install rjsx-mode without explaining what th= e init file is, why the state isn=E2=80=99t persistent, what package-archive= s is, how lisp works, etc... So the point for me is that it=E2=80=99s the default. (And as an additional p= oint is that an official GNU manual for a =E2=80=98How to make Emacs an IDE=E2= =80=99 will probably never recommend MELPA nor any MELPA packages.) However, I can fully understand your preferences. In that case, would adding= MELPA or at least recommending MELPA to add them be possible in Emacs?=20 >>> IOW, are you saying that the technical details of the package's >>> implementation should not matter, for fear of sending the wrong >>> message? >>=20 >> Pretty much, yes. Not just "for fear", but because we do want to >> encourage people to share their code (which can always be improved if >> necessary). >=20 > They already share their code, on MELPA, on GitHub, on GitLab, etc. > Why do we need to invest our efforts into one more repository "like > that"? It makes no sense at all. >=20