From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 14:56:50 -0500 Message-ID: References: <20140103152117.GA16679@c3po> <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> <3096922F-ACE6-4D70-BDB9-F6110FF8C62A@gmail.com> <7cecbad5-1f01-4c73-811a-aa11cc21d0a0@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389124626 23906 80.91.229.3 (7 Jan 2014 19:57:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2014 19:57:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel devel To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 07 20:57:13 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W0cm0-00086P-Eg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 20:57:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42556 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0cm0-0001VZ-4R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:57:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33467) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0clp-0001VP-5d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:57:05 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0clk-0000tA-Dm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:57:01 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qc0-x22b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b]:39268) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0clk-0000t4-93 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 14:56:56 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id c9so593606qcz.16 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:56:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GadyadJd/g1BE6Pgb8RvpLI7/bzf9XI8fwFSFqLNBsE=; b=JxXEiRQ9/JkP5pyvoIUMRTL9AXgSYDfFO3aB6VXd44dEz5HuGA1smqOye3+jPNLCFS IArL2gSz26jJQCEuEr9m3ETuT8Vae2CASTBzOgwPxhhza+5Qa1tdzoM2csQdql8D4sMq /zDGAenuF7OUzIjFbPqOUL3wb3ppJgtmbVkO06OhDC+CfenF4dnd0a8im09mABBlVQNe 9e8D/2GVBGVOEFKAdvL4kyPGv5Ln1Kug9HJXgA+CYPLUxl1K7iy6aCvftNQor9ItF2T9 dZARMyWQUR6j6hSk8F4cNHURBBpqaYSgwYG8/NtzlploY3x6nAmpsNXqz1MI76Mn4nHF rm1g== X-Received: by 10.49.110.72 with SMTP id hy8mr173666715qeb.67.1389124614328; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:56:54 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from www01.para.ist.psu.edu ([130.203.154.138]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l8sm97352007qaz.14.2014.01.07.11.56.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2014 11:56:52 -0800 (PST) X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <7cecbad5-1f01-4c73-811a-aa11cc21d0a0@default> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167670 Archived-At: On Jan 7, 2014, at 2:06 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >> Beyond trying to remember, using current terminology is sends >> the message that Emacs is old, stubborn, and crufty, which is a >> problem when trying to introduce new users to Emacs. >=20 > No, it does not. If Emacs were invented from scratch today, it > would still need its own jargon. Some of the particulars would > no doubt be different, but Emacs would still stand apart in both > behavior and terminology. Yes, but the jargon would not conflict with widely used terminology. = Would you really redefine a common word like "window", and invent = another one referring to the established meaning of windows? =20 Other things are actually different, and different terms are = appropriate. "Mark" comes to mind, or "major" and "minor" modes. You're right in that Emacs is not yet another editor, and you want to = send that message. But, don't people see this soon enough when they = actually use it? The UI experiment that I have been interested in with Aquamacs, is to = allow people to gradually transition from a newbie user to a proficient = one with high routinized sequences of actions. This is actually = something that other editors and IDEs can't provide to the extent that = Emacs does. Netbeans, Eclipse, Xcode - they're great IDEs and very = integrated, and certainly useful for proficient users, but they're = nowhere nearly as efficient as Emacs.