From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Colascione Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 09:48:26 -0400 Message-ID: References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40789"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Kangas , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 23 15:49:02 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNaX-000APN-Bu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 15:49:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNaF-00087E-HA; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 09:48:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNa9-00086j-Dm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 09:48:38 -0400 Original-Received: from dancol.org ([2600:3c01:e000:3d8::1]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNa5-00009N-MD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 09:48:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:CC:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=zkF1liDKNCOUzmJAKQ9xJ/cZeh5Q0dQka5OoJLk9cmA=; b=SET3zadB97vzO7vFf609Iw1Hzw iIG96WmnIdWKoKO3X4Aitl6BMgXC4upUOtuSL5X5KUNwUGNuROC3gwSHq7+AZAwmVv9OsNWhkB/I9 C9MpS2lxI5PlGXGQyIKbR2xOIKAIyq5CTRqWjsbRusVzBmVpkx6s/YFieb6ydzgHX+5aKVEhDlYIg a6geSM7D5nj58NdrugXg0CcahBvfM9gHGAP7ngheTWLk0pofjP0lWqD02e6WDBxORr8LZ24PcOCmi L5g5Kyu1t3KJgY2AMonhyfExLDnhGldFYbMZQLmf+AB1aKzmh0kIAFVk37DNYBilIFPGwbyYX22HX wCKKz/WQ==; Original-Received: from 2603-9001-4203-1ab2-44c9-c16c-aa21-95a3.inf6.spectrum.com ([2603:9001:4203:1ab2:44c9:c16c:aa21:95a3]:48558 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1sLNZy-0004nY-Ks; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 09:48:26 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2600:3c01:e000:3d8::1; envelope-from=dancol@dancol.org; helo=dancol.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320528 Archived-At: On June 23, 2024 9:40:06 AM EDT, Po Lu wrote: >Daniel Colascione writes: > >> So? Nobody is preventing those users doing what they want with their >> key bindings=2E You're making a general purpose argument against havin= g >> default key bindings at all=2E Why don't we just ship Emacs with an >> empty global keymap so we're not imposing on anyone? > >Replace "having" with "introducing" and you should find that this line >of argument is generally sound=2E After all these years, all the command= s >that justify being bound by default have already received bindings in >the default keymaps, and plenty of commands that are well in excess of >this criterion=2E > >> Metrics with nontrivial opt-in suffer from selection bias=2E The sort o= f >> person who goes out of his way to enable telemetry is the sort of >> person who's going to do more customization than the average user=2E > >Yes=2E That does not render mandatory collection of metrics any the less >morally objectionable in a computer program, nor imposing arbitrary >changes on users any more reasonable=2E > Opt-out collection of anonymous metrics has been an industry standard for = many years now=2E There's nothing morally objectionable about it=2E It's pe= rfectly normal=2E Nor would there be anything about asking users "Collect a= nonymous metrics to help Emacs development? Y/N" on first startup=2E Sugges= ting that asking such a question is a moral wrong is an extreme and uncommo= n position=2E