From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: transient Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 21:11:37 +0900 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8533DF2F-8158-4E60-91CE-9003BA6929D2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="114236"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Philippe Vaucher , Eli Zaretskii , tomas@tuxteam.de, Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: =?utf-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 02 14:13:41 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUr1Z-000Tc8-AQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 14:13:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:32856 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUr1Y-0002vw-C2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:13:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56346) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUr0c-0001WT-WA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:12:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqzd-0002fu-Oe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:12:42 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztdg10021101.me.com ([17.58.6.44]:58417) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqzd-0002bt-7u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:11:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1588421499; bh=dB8XumuuY7L6L/yUADZK3QBct7GxWxqHBhK9Gn97s0Q=; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Date:Message-Id:To; b=KD4rLGwONd3/4yKAar7ZcjCHCWRdvDxBt2RSAEP29695YoIPThdqZ3uV9CsRy8OHz qtwJx2IJGdRqTS5kl1iCJZ2p+s/iZZkFJhWBSv8Eumj3RtfO5bS3VC0OgvTDGt5rCD ldN1oTWl3eE/xGv+cpng5VNPyRBtZ6TRcT90NBYe65F5bKWbEmTfJJ4dIUFrcfBK13 aRumWKR143BLuw3ppYiQjZaKZxSZhdlv6aHG4Uh1EA2ZCEtY+F4c3ijiBi/24NzBHH RyMfBUunxy4ROg91Fn9yV8PTzVG0NGbipM7Yf3j3LXFPF7QyApZ6PWxAmktWFEaBoa 7mo12wM1OcosA== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.101] (unknown [218.153.67.143]) by pv50p00im-ztdg10021101.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E0AB1806A5; Sat, 2 May 2020 12:11:39 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17E262) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-02_06:2020-05-01, 2020-05-02 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2005020111 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.44; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-ztdg10021101.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/02 08:11:40 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Received-From: 17.58.6.44 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248414 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail-8533DF2F-8158-4E60-91CE-9003BA6929D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > 2020. 5. 2. =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 9:03, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 12:40 PM Philippe Vaucher wrote: > >> > >> > Interesting point. I think that could work, but wouldn't it be much e= asier if the language itself was self-documenting? > >> > >> Maybe, but that entails changing the language, by definition. And you > >> will face resistance because languages are things people kinda grow > >> accustomed to. Imagine if I told you the French language should now > >> also include all the words of Portuguese, because, you know, they're > >> just better. Even worse with macros. It's like I told you not only you > >> have to learn Portuguese words, but its grammar, too. > > > > > > Well I propose to add new-style APIs. People can still use the old ones.= >=20 > But they would have to learn to read programs in the new stuff, no? Well learning the new stuff will be much easier & predictive if done well (a= nd that=E2=80=99s the point). > I > never said you would be replacing words in French, just adding. >=20 > To be fair, in programming languages, one has to do that, with > libraries. The finer point here is that you're asking for new words > for general purpose talk, not new words for a specific new subject,=20 > like, say, nuclear frobnicators. You'd certainly need new words for=20 > that. >=20 > > But yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that even adding a new-style > > API is too disruptive. If it happens It'll probably live outside of > > Emacs in MELPA. > > > > I'm not sure I like this simplification, but there seem to be two > > communities of Emacs users, the "traditional" one and the "github" > > one. Both have their perspective on how things should be, and it seems > > that both communities have trouble understanding how the other > > community function. >=20 > Yep. It's a simplification. I use GitHub a lot (more than I wanted to). > It's the only social network I use, btw, because stuff actually gets > built there. >=20 > But indeed there is a kind of separation (though perhaps less bipolar > than you make it appear, and more of a spectrum). I guess I was once in > the ruby-cool-kids-web-2.0-quick-google-ftw faction, if you understand > what I mean, but I got to learn the old-school ways of the manual and > Emacs -Q and now I really like them. In 2006, I had a long > painstakingly crafted configuration that made Emacs behave like > Eclipse and I'm very happy to have rid myself of it (I do keep the smart > C-a though). Nowadays, when I find an awkward part in Emacs I ask > myself: if people have been using this for so long, there _must_ be a > good reason for this interface. If I don't find an obvious answer, I > ask here. And often, things do evolve. But very often too, it was > indeed a pretty good interface to start with, I just wasn't aware of it. > Why wasn't I aware of it? Well, indeed, Emacs could do a better job of > communicating its superior interfaces to the world, but we're > outnumbered against all those people that impatiently expect it to > behave like the cool VSCode rock star screencasts, just like I once did > about Eclipse. >=20 > Jo=C3=A3o --Apple-Mail-8533DF2F-8158-4E60-91CE-9003BA6929D2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2020. 5. 2. =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 9:03, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3= =A1vora <joaotavora@gmail.com> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

=EF=BB=BF
= On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 12:40 PM Philippe Vaucher <philippe.vaucher@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=
>> > Interesting point. I think that could work, but wouldn't i= t be much easier if the language itself was self-documenting?
>>>> Maybe, but that entails changing the language, by definition. = ; And you
>> will face resistance because languages are things peop= le kinda grow
>> accustomed to.  Imagine if I told you the Fre= nch language should now
>> also include all the words of Portuguese= , because, you know, they're
>> just better. Even worse with macros= . It's like I told you not only you
>> have to learn Portuguese wor= ds, but its grammar, too.
>
>
> Well I propose to add= new-style APIs. People can still use the old ones.

But t= hey would have to learn to read programs in the new stuff, no?

Well learning the new stuff will be much easi= er & predictive if done well (and that=E2=80=99s the point).

I
never said yo= u would be replacing words in French, just adding.

To be fair, in pro= gramming languages, one has to do that, with
libraries.  The finer p= oint here is that you're asking for new words
for general purpose ta= lk, not new words for a specific new subject,
like, say, nucl= ear frobnicators.  You'd certainly need new words for
th= at.

> But yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that even addin= g a new-style
> API is too disruptive. If it happens It'll probably li= ve outside of
> Emacs in MELPA.
>
> I'm not sure I like th= is simplification, but there seem to be two
> communities of Emacs use= rs, the "traditional" one and the "github"
> one. Both have their pers= pective on how things should be, and it seems
> that both communities h= ave trouble understanding how the other
> community function.

Yep. It's a simplification.  I use GitHub a lot (more t= han I wanted to).
It's the only social network I use, btw, because stuff a= ctually gets
built there.

But indeed there is a kind of separation= (though perhaps less bipolar
than you make it appear, and more of a spec= trum).  I guess I was once in
the ruby-cool-kids-web-2.0-quick-googl= e-ftw faction, if you understand
what I mean, but I got to learn the old-= school ways of the manual and
Emacs -Q and now I really like them.  I= n 2006, I had a long
painstakingly crafted configuration that made Emacs b= ehave like
Eclipse and I'm very happy to have rid myself of it (I do keep= the smart
C-a though).  Nowadays, when I find an awkward part in Em= acs I ask
myself: if people have been using this for so long, there _must= _ be a
good reason for this interface.  If I don't find an obvious a= nswer, I
ask here. And often, things do evolve.  But very often too,= it was
indeed a pretty good interface to start with, I just wasn't aware= of it.
Why wasn't I aware of it?  Well, indeed, Emacs could do a be= tter job of
communicating its superior interfaces to the world, but we're=
outnumbered against all those people that impatiently expect it to
be= have like the cool VSCode rock star screencasts, just like I once did
abo= ut Eclipse.

Jo=C3=A3o
= --Apple-Mail-8533DF2F-8158-4E60-91CE-9003BA6929D2--