From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Qiantan Hong Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Question collaborative editing - Wikipedia reference Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 22:45:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <11EB917D-3276-4D34-8DCD-2336E8062950@mit.edu> <20201005040245.GJ15516@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201005084441.GB4453@protected.rcdrun.com> <87zh50lhda.fsf@red-bean.com> <20201006173228.GA18043@localhost> <20201020161557.trl2ehuvcqotag4l@Ergus> <20201020185114.GE6994@t400> <3AFE3D85-16AF-460E-B3E6-1EE80223C627@mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EF85F3E2-4E8E-41FD-B6E7-FC65F20CA707"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7013"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Ergus , Fermin , Jean Louis , Caio Henrique , Noam Postavsky , Emacs developers , Karl Fogel , Stefan Monnier , Eli Zaretskii To: Mathias Dahl Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 27 23:51:28 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kXXoN-0001ix-R3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 23:51:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41590 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kXXoM-000342-SJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:51:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38358) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kXXmq-0002Kv-2Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:49:52 -0400 Original-Received: from outgoing-exchange-7.mit.edu ([18.9.28.58]:34142) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kXXmn-0007i1-SP; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:49:51 -0400 Original-Received: from oc11exedge2.exchange.mit.edu (OC11EXEDGE2.EXCHANGE.MIT.EDU [18.9.3.18]) by outgoing-exchange-7.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 09RMjS1K029223; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:45:59 -0400 Original-Received: from oc11expo16.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.4.47) by oc11exedge2.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.3.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1293.2; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:45:16 -0400 Original-Received: from oc11expo16.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.4.47) by oc11expo16.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.4.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:45:28 -0400 Original-Received: from oc11expo16.exchange.mit.edu ([18.9.4.47]) by oc11expo16.exchange.mit.edu ([18.9.4.47]) with mapi id 15.00.1365.000; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:45:28 -0400 Thread-Topic: Question collaborative editing - Wikipedia reference Thread-Index: AQHWmzvL4LjU6k9HIUyZcJcFcadSFqmKBbmAgAEUMACAFetDgIAAD34AgAAb5ACACYtqgIABqBmAgAAOQQA= In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [18.18.245.17] Received-SPF: pass client-ip=18.9.28.58; envelope-from=qhong@mit.edu; helo=outgoing-exchange-7.mit.edu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/27 18:49:47 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows 7 (Websense crawler) X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:258522 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_EF85F3E2-4E8E-41FD-B6E7-FC65F20CA707 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FBB90759-D13E-4989-86B1-659E940AFDC0" --Apple-Mail=_FBB90759-D13E-4989-86B1-659E940AFDC0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Just as Gobby editor, it leaves connecting issues to the > administrator, it does not solves it itself. It is external issue. We might be able to automate this as best effort and eliminate the need for any network knowledge/expertise for most users. I will explain below. > Sorry for coming late to the party, and for this na=C3=AFve and = perhaps repeated question/suggestion (I tried searching the archive but = could not find any efficient or reliable way), but can some service = running on Savannah or Gnu.org act as the central = point, for those cases when the collaborators cannot easily connect by = other means?' I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s an ideal way to do it, unless we = really don=E2=80=99t know how to do it by other means, for the followingreasons: - I assumes either Savannah or Gnu.org server is just = a single server with a fixed geolocation on the planet. It might work well for computers around it, but the latency will be huge if the computer happen to be in the other hemisphere from our server. CDN can=E2=80=99t help anything = here. - This will overlay all the traffic through GNU server, which is = unnecessary in lots of cases (e.g. when it=E2=80=99s possible to use STUN to = traverse the NATs). That will put maintenance burden on the server admin I think I=E2=80=99m roaming through relevant material recently and I think I = have those options in mind - use libnice to do the NAT traversal job. It will be convenient if = there=E2=80=99s any TCP tunneling tool built on libnice. Nobody mention any so far, so maybe we need to implement one in C. - use ipfs p2p tunneling functionality=20 https://docs.ipfs.io/reference/cli/#ipfs-p2p = I can immediately add some elisp to automate this such that user just = issue the new session Emacs command, then get a accessible IPFS URI, if we think this is the way to go. I dislike the IPFS implementation = however because it=E2=80=99s return in a UNIXer language whose name shall not be = mentioned. Also IPFS is not a GNU project. - use Tor hidden service. It happens to traverse NAT (or some firewall) as a byproduct of its = anonymity. Some drawback + we also pay the anonymity tax - lower bandwidth and higher latency, because of the relays between. + starting hidden service require changing some config file and = usually require root access, which make it a bit more cumbersome to = automate in Elisp. - GNUnet. I wish we were running our whole Internet over it. However=20 I doubt gnunet-cadet is usable with acceptable latency right now. --Apple-Mail=_FBB90759-D13E-4989-86B1-659E940AFDC0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Just as Gobby editor, it = leaves connecting issues to the
administrator, it does not = solves it itself. It is external issue.
We might be able to automate this as best effort and = eliminate
the need for any network = knowledge/expertise for most users.
I will explain = below.

Sorry for coming late to = the party, and for this na=C3=AFve and perhaps repeated = question/suggestion (I tried searching the archive but could not find = any efficient or reliable way), but can some service running on Savannah = or Gnu.org act as = the central point, for those cases when the collaborators cannot easily = connect by other means?'
I don=E2=80=99t= think that=E2=80=99s an ideal way to do it, unless we really don=E2=80=99= t know
how to do it by other means, for the = followingreasons:

- I assumes either Savannah or Gnu.org server is just a single server
with a fixed geolocation on the planet. It might work well = for computers
around it, but the latency will be = huge if the computer happen to be
in the other = hemisphere from our server. CDN can=E2=80=99t help anything = here.

- This = will overlay all the traffic through GNU server, which is = unnecessary
in lots of cases (e.g. when it=E2=80=99s = possible to use STUN to traverse the NATs).
That = will put maintenance burden on the server admin I think

I=E2=80=99m roaming through = relevant material recently and I think I have those
options in = mind

- use libnice to do the NAT = traversal job. It will be convenient if there=E2=80=99s
any = TCP tunneling tool built on libnice. Nobody mention any so far, = so
maybe we need to implement one in C.

- use ipfs p2p tunneling = functionality 
I = can immediately add some elisp to automate this such that user just = issue
the new session Emacs command, then get a accessible = IPFS URI,
if we think this is the way to go. I dislike the = IPFS implementation however
because it=E2=80=99s return in a = UNIXer language whose name shall not be mentioned.
Also IPFS = is not a GNU project.

- use Tor = hidden service.
It happens to traverse NAT (or some firewall) = as a byproduct of its anonymity.
Some = drawback
   + we also pay the anonymity tax - lower = bandwidth and higher latency,
      because of = the relays between.
   + starting hidden service = require changing some config file and usually
    =   require root access, which make it a bit more cumbersome to = automate
      in Elisp.

- GNUnet. I wish we were running our whole = Internet over it. However 
   I doubt = gnunet-cadet is usable with acceptable latency right now.


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