From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:33:42 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8564hy5aq6.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153071319 21768 80.91.229.2 (16 Jul 2006 17:35:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:35:19 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 16 19:35:18 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AWR-0008R5-47 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 19:35:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AWQ-0005kK-LW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:35:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVf-0005Tk-77 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:27 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVc-0005Rs-8g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:26 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2AVc-0005Rm-0r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:34:24 -0400 Original-Received: from [141.146.126.228] (helo=agminet01.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1G2AY5-0003Rc-UQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:36:58 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsmt251.oracle.com (rcsmt251.oracle.com [148.87.90.196]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.7/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k6GHYMYs014089 for ; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 12:34:22 -0500 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-64-45.vpn.oracle.com by rcsmt250.oracle.com with ESMTP id 1574146861153071234; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 11:33:54 -0600 Original-To: "Emacs-Devel" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <8564hy5aq6.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57103 Archived-At: > Another in the Mouseless-That-Roared camp, eh? A small, but very > vocal and militant minority, apparently. It does not give you any thoughts that from your "majority", you are the only one to speak up? Hmm, now that you mention it... Maybe emacs-devel is a bit out of touch with noobs? Nah, that's not fair. Maybe 3 or 4 people on emacs-devel are? Nah, the point is that newbies are the target for the tutorial, and they are not subscribed to the list. I'm not the only one who can speak for them, of course, but I didn't see any arguments from you 3 that spoke to newbie needs. You basically went on an anti-mouse rampage. Newbies are overwhelmingly used to using a mouse. Let them do that while they get the basics of Info. Save the teaching of why it's better to learn to use the keyboard for later. It is 100% irrelevant whether emacs-devel subscribers have or use a mouse. The only relevant question for the issue at hand (Info) that has to do with mouse vs keyboard is this: am I wrong that *newbies* are overwhelmingly used to using a mouse? If I'm not wrong, then there is no reason to sidetrack the start of the Info tutorial just to put them on the keyboard track. > The point is that we do not *have* to teach people how to get to > next and previous nodes (provided they have a mouse, which most > users do [OUCH!]). That is advertised at the top of the buffer with > big blazing buttons. It's just, well, brain-dead obvious. If you > blindfold yourself, then you might need a tutorial to help you get > through the living room, but if you turn `blindfold-mode' OFF... it > hurts a lot less. > > We certainly don't need to spend the first several minutes of the > tutorial on `n' and `p', even for the mouseless. For the moused, we > can teach `n' and `p' later, after they know what Info is all > about. (Hint: it is not about `n' or `p'; it has something to do > with finding `Info'rmation.) The mouse can only be used for the most important functions as a fallback. It does not make sense in a tutorial to focus on the less important functions first. Your last sentence was precisely why I wrote my feedback. The most important functions are `i', `s', `g', `l', SPC, DEL, and perhaps `T' and `L' (and maybe even `M-n'). They are certainly *NOT* `n', `p', `u', `d', and `m'. I think that must be our basic disagreement: what are the most important Info functions and features to teach? Do we need to start by teaching `n', `p', `u', `d', and `m'?